Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)

RFC: Can an article be too biased in favor of near-universal sourcing of one side of an issue? (Gamergate controversy)

See /RFC1

Sanctions enforcement

All articles related to the gamergate controversy are subject to General sanctions

Requests for enforcing sanctions may be made at: Wikipedia:General sanctions/Gamergate/Requests for enforcement

Gamergate winding down

Focus should be given more to the decline of the pro-Gamergate narrative, as noted here; Has Gamergate Finally Burned Itself Out?. Take note of what they discuss, the matter a judge who jokingly said he she would vote against all male-oriented games at the Independent Games Festival. The judge resigned briefly in the wake of the Gamergate complaints, til the IGF actually examined the merit (or lack thereof) the complaints, and swiftly reinstated him her. The article, as well as many others, notes Sarkeesian's appearance on the Colbert Report, as well as the co-founder of Blizzard Entertainment saying "Over the past couple of months there’s been a small group of people who have been doing really awful things. They have been making some people’s lives miserable and they are tarnishing our reputation as gamers. It’s not right." A high-profile game industry person speaking out on this is rather notable. Tarc (talk) 00:35, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

But ethics!-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:46, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

I only read the first link because I don't have much time, but the Slate piece is a blog. Also, the judge was of the Independent Games Festival, instead of a real judiciary. starship.paint ~ regal 00:51, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, no dice. The blog-esque sections of reliable sources are treated no differently, i.e. you don't get to do the "just a blog" dismissal.

Assuming they have the same editorial policies. HalfHat 14:09, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

If you're referring to Mattie Brice (and I think you are), she's a her, not a him. -- TaraInDC (talk) 01:05, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Derp, sorry...saw the name, assumed short for Matthew. Fixed. Tarc (talk) 02:02, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Winding down is the appropriate phrasing. Gamergate is not "dead" and will never be dead. It means too much to those who are involved in the movement (or consumer revolt, whatever) that they will continue to work on GG issues into the future. It's like a campaign, those who are marginally involved have now moved on already, there isn't really anything "newsworthy" that has happened recently so it's not in the mainstream media and gaming journals are, for sure, tired of discussing the topic. It will never go away completely but, barring any flash fires, activity will lessen in the coming weeks and months. Ideally, this will provide some much needed perspective that will help this article. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:02, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

You people do realize that the media churns out yet another "GamerGate is Dead! Pls stop stealing our monies ;-;" every week or so? I'm so pissed off that you actually fall for this that I'm not even going to bother linking to the 20+ stupid "GamerGate is dead" shit. --DSA510 Pls No H8 05:35, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Yeah one from weeks ago is actually in the references here. I've heard Dyson pulled their advertising recently which doesn't really fit with this, though I've not seen any RS report on it. HalfHat 08:56, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

They didn't even report on Mercedes Benz, only when they got back, and only one outlet, and even when Gawker denied they were advertising with them. Loganmac (talk) 14:04, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Reliable sources drive our narrative. As the frightening and horrific events that characterised the first two months recede into the past and public attitudes to Gamergate solidify, it's not surprising that some of those reliable sources are now talking about Gamergate being over. It certainly isn't Wikipedia's task to act as a booster for a movement that the vast majority of reliable sources regard as hateful and violent. That's just not what encyclopaedias are for. --TS 12:34, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I would say that since the author cannot even do a little fact checking about when a website was created ("Gamergate organizers at 8chan—a site set up for Gamergate after 4chan booted them—" a simple Google search will tell them the site was created in 2013), and is instead parroting the views of those who wish people to believe that 8chan was set up just for those involved in GamerGate, that the actual piece is not reliable. If the author can't take 5 seconds to find out if a site was made before or after what they're writing about, then they aren't worth the read. Also, we are well aware that this line "Gamergaters knew an opportunity when they saw one and put on a great show of being offended by this tweet, which they read, or pretended to read, as literal." in referring to Mattie Brice's comments would have been called sexist, misogynistic, etc. had a man said the same thing about any game with women. It is intellectually bankrupt, and hypocritical, to deny that many feminists, etc., do take those types of things literally when men say them; and then turn around and say that no one should take those kinds of statements literally as long as they come from a woman. The article, itself, is of no value to the page. UncleThursday (talk) 05:20, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Culling substandard sources

This is a controversial article which deals with very specific WP:BLP topics, but is plagued with substandard sourcing. There is really no need to have 153 sources detailing the minutia of the controversy. I suggest removing all the sources labeled as op-eds, and all of the gaming press sources. That would leave mainstream outlets like the BBC, public radio, PBS, The New Yorker, Slate, The New York Times, The Independent, The Boston Globe, Le Monde, Salon, CNN, Mother Jones, The Guardian, Wired, Time, LA Times etc, so long as the sources were not to their editorial page. This would mean removing sources like Venture Beat, Ars Technica, IGN, Polygon, The Daily Dot, Kotaku, PC Magazine, The Verge, Gamespot, Gameindustry.biz, Re/code, Eurogamer, etc...

The question of the RfC: Shall we limit the sourcing of this article to mainstream secondary sources, removing all niche game journalism sources, niche tech journalism sources, opinion/editorials columns, and personal blogs?

We just don't need to use niche publications to create an article for this topic. aprock (talk) 19:27, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

discussion

• There's a case to be made for some of the sources you've suggested dropping, but it might be a valuable exercise to cull the sourcing in general. There are all ready too many footnotes to marginal or situationally useful references. Protonk (talk) 19:41, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
• There will be a few "substandard" sources I think we need to keep, such as Tolito's Kotaku rebuttal to the initial Quinn charge. But I do think that a few step of seeing what claims made by substandard sources can be moved to a good RS should be done first, and then see what the next step (eg how many statements only sourcable to substandard ones are left). --MASEM (t) 19:47, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Sources like that are reasonable to keep if they are referred to in the mainstream press. Thus if his rebuttal is discussed, in say the Wall Street Journal, the primary source can be included. aprock (talk) 19:49, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's reasonable. But I think that determination should come after we do, wherever possible, replacement of weak RS to strong RS that support the same fact (eg what should be non-issue as that's just general improvement) What's left will then have to take a more cautious approach. --MASEM (t) 19:57, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• the request is too broad. as a purely cultural event, opinions/analysis/commentary are necessary to understand the controversy's place and impact in culture. removing the items that place it in context is inimical to a good article. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:51, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

No one is suggesting removing analysis and commentary of the event. In fact, per WP:PSTS we rely on secondary sources to perform topic synthesis. However, per WP:RSOPINION, opinion pieces are generally not reliable sources for much beyond what the author thinks. If a mainstream source indicates that the editorial is of particular interest, then including it might be reasonable. Including it simply because it exists, is contrary to WP:DUE. aprock (talk) 19:54, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Are you reading a different proposal than I am? Shall we limit the sourcing of this article to mainstream secondary sources, removing all ... opinion/editorials columns, and personal blogs? yes, there is not only the suggestion but actual statement we remove from consideration some of the prime locations to derive high quality , in-depth opinion/commentary/analysis to be left with soundbites culled from "news" articles. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:08, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

I suspect that your definition of "high quality" is considerably different that that of the mainstream. Which "high quality" source would this proposal affect? aprock (talk) 22:19, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

"high quality" relative to the sources available for an issue that is 3 months old. When the academic reviews come in, then the editorials are likely to be the second tier of quality. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:05, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• Eliminating tech sources for an article about a technocultural controversy seems arbitrary or WP:POINTY. In some cases, though perhaps not in all, the technical press will offer expertise or detail not available to more general sources. Often, requests for source purges of this nature are really seeking to eliminate sourcing for critical sections of an article, which can then be removed, or preparing for a fresh visit to AfD. Neither is likely to be effective here. Moreover, if all this pruning will be done while the article remains capped with an NPOV template, we’ll continually be wrangling over whether each change is a further attempt to deskew the article. I do not see this as a productive path forward. MarkBernstein (talk) 20:07, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "pointy". If the tech sources are high quality mainstream sources they are probably reasonable. Which tech sources do you think are particularly high quality mainstream sources? aprock (talk) 22:17, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• This seems like a good broad principle and an absolutely terrible hard and fast rule. Oppose. Artw (talk) 20:10, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
• Seems incredibly overbroad to me to suggest that we can't use well-known tech/gaming journalism sources, which are those which have covered this matter most extensively. The Verge and Polygon in particular are run by noted journalists with a pretty significant history of quality work. Also, if we remove all of the sources you suggest, we will be left with far fewer "pro-GamerGate" voices — no Erik Kain, no APGNation, no MetalEater, no CinemaBlend, no Cathy Young, no Christina Hoff Sommers, etc. The ramifications of the fact that the only pro-GamerGate sources are of such marginal quality is an exercise left for the reader. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:36, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Which of the tech/gaming sources are particularly "well-known"? aprock (talk) 22:17, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, as I said, The Verge for one. As per its Alexa rank (426), it receives more traffic than Slate (611), Wired (623), Salon (1,088) or Mother Jones (3,700), just to name a few of those you named. Its staff consists of well-known tech journalists including Nilay Patel and its reporting is widely cited and commented upon beyond its site. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:30, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

It's not at all clear that Alexa traffic is a good barometer of mainstream. The Verge is just barely three years old. I personally don't have any issue with the site, and know nothing about it's editorial practices. Is there any reporting there that is crucial to the article, and which can't be sourced to other mainstream sources? If so, it may be reasonable to use it, but it's probably not a big loss if it's not used. I could be wrong though. aprock (talk) 22:35, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

OK, then what is a good barometer of mainstream other than just arguing by assertion that tech sites can't be mainstream? And why would Wired be mainstream and The Verge not? More people read The Verge than read Wired, at least based upon available traffic stats. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:42, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

That's a good question, but again I don't think website traffic is the way to answer it. There may be some insight at mainstream media if you're curious to investigate further. aprock (talk) 23:00, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

It's not up to me to answer it — you're the one making the claim that Wired is "mainstream" and The Verge is not. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:18, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

It seems to me that you're trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. I don't really care one way or another about The Verge. If it is generally considered a high quality mainstream source, then it should be included.aprock (talk) 23:28, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

OK, that's all I needed to hear. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:32, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• Seems a bit too sweeping to be practical, but it's hard to say sight unseen. Could a version be worked on as a subpage here, to see what the article would look like if such sources were pruned? Tarc (talk) 20:47, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support: as nominator. The quality of sources in the article is extremely low. Erring on the side of higher quality sources is a much better course to tack. aprock (talk) 22:23, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose: It's a cultural issue surrounding games, I'm pretty sure game and tech sites are relevant --Frybread (talk) 22:45, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support: Kotaku is unbiased.[1] Source 1: Kotaku. --DSA510 Pls No H8 23:10, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh, and if you're going to whine that Gawker is a bastion of gold journalism, [1]. Just a few months after the "Fappening", they do a hard 180, and use (semi)nude pics for traffic. Don't bother reporting it, I have a local copy. --DSA510 Pls No H8 00:08, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose until nominator describes a meaningful process for defining which sources are "mainstream" that amounts to more than WP:IDONTLIKEIT. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:22, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Allow me to suggest that WP:BLP, WP:RS, and WP:DUE be our guides. aprock (talk) 23:25, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Then you agree that The Verge is a perfectly-acceptable reliable source for this article and not "substandard" in any way? I don't object to looking at replacing The Daily Dot, CinemaBlend, etc. where possible, but The Verge is a pretty vital source which has extensively covered this issue. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:26, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't agree or disagree with respect to The Verge. It's up to the community to determine that this is a high quality mainstream source. It's not my call. Personally, I have no real experience with it, and have no clue how often it is used by other media. aprock (talk) 23:34, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. This is a bad idea. Mainstream sources are being incredibly lazy with regard to this topic. It would further exacerbate the problems the article's having. Willhesucceed (talk) 23:50, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support, to some extent - I don't think it should be strictly limited to "mainstream only" as some of the industry-specific sources may give insight into the greater "chilling effects" on the industry. "Mainstream" will also ultimately be an arbitrary criteria. I'm not sure I agree with the assessment of substandard v standard - is it ultimately saying that if something is mentioned in a smaller source instead of mainstream sources, it is less reliable? I guess I tend to agree with that. But - if something is mentioned in mainstream and lesser-known both, and both are cited here, I definitely agree that the lesser-known can be culled, especially in a long article like this one (as Masem says below). And if there are details used in this article that are only cited in one (or maybe two) niche sources but not in the major press coverage, those should probably be reconsidered for inclusion. Either way I will be watching this with interest, as a related article I've been keeping an eye on uses almost exclusively what aprock describes here as "substandard sources," but that is a much more industry-specific article, while comparatively this issue has broken out into a higher level of media awareness so there are more sources to choose from. Hustlecat ^{do it!} 23:54, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose as rather arbitrary. The technical press is not automatically of low quality, and in many cases it's the best source. I'm not completely opposed to suggestions that redundant sources should be trimmed. And where we do this, we should always take care to select the best source for the context. --TS 23:31, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Support This has gotten a lot of mainstream coverage, we don't need biased journals. Mr. Guye (talk) 02:27, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Partial step: Replace low quality with high quality sources supporting same point

This is basically what I describe above, but to repeat, and highlight , I do suggest that a partial step that should not be as much of an issue is to replace any weak RS that is not tied to a quote or specific opinion with an high quality RS that can source the same point, if one does exist. If there doesn't exist a strong RS replacement, leave it for the time being. After we do that, we should be able to make a better judgement of what the quality of sourcing looks like if we need a further step. --MASEM (t) 22:31, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

What are these weaker sources that you suggest be replaced?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:34, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

The same list given above. But again, to be clear, this is only if a better quality RS can source the exact same point; there's definitely points where the writing in the finer details would require a specific source to be used and that couldn't be changed out. --MASEM (t) 22:41, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with this. Tarc (talk) 22:44, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Seems like an easier first pass to take. aprock (talk) 22:48, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Sounds sensible. No objection here. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:48, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Specifically: IGN, The Daily Dot, PC Magazine, Gamespot and Gameindustry.biz can go. Ars Technica and Kotaku should stay. The former because they are generally reliable (and widely relied upon in tech articles) and the latter because it is unavoidable. Protonk (talk) 23:02, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

I would add TechCrunch and CinemaBlend to the list of those we can look to replace. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:33, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Reliability must always be evaluated on a case-by-case matter. As someone who works in IT, I can say that the mainstream can sometimes be a poor source about technical topics, as it may be written by journalists who don't understand the topics they are writing about. Sources who specialize in a topic can often provide better coverage since it is what they specialize in. If we eliminate the technical press from technology-related articles, what's next? Should we stop citing astronomy sources in articles about astronomy? This is a bad idea. Each source must be judge individually, not by sweeping assertions. See WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:16, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I was not aware that there were any technical aspects of this controversy. As best I can tell, you are arguing to use primary sources above secondary sources. Given the degree of misuse that primary sources can cause, it's pretty clear that secondary sources should be used for the greatest part. To the extent that using primary sources makes sense, that should be determined by the secondary sources. aprock (talk) 00:35, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

There may not be technical aspects to the controversy, but the gaming industry and community can be abstruse to those not part of it. The topic's not going to be served by handing it over exclusively to mainstream sources. Willhesucceed (talk) 05:05, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

This doesn't make sense given the suggestion. If we have a point sourced to , say, ArsTech, and the same point can be sourced to NYTimes, we should use the better quality source. On the other hand, if ArsTech goes into some detail on a technical point we have, and the NYtimes touches but glosses over the details, we should keep the ArsTech in this first partial step. The only suggestions I'm saying is when the 1-to-1 replacement is obvious. --MASEM (t) 06:53, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Comment. Summoned here by bot. I agree that only the highest quality sources should be used for text that presents a genuine BLP issue. However I would not agree with a blanket prohibition on industry publications. Coretheapple (talk) 18:22, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Tooooooo long

Whoever tagged this, "This article may be too long to read and navigate comfortably", was absolutely right. I offer a barnstar for the first editor who in a non-vandalistic way manages to cut this article down to 80k. [Psst: I understand you want to stick everything in here, but the result is that no one can read it.] Drmies (talk) 02:35, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I will take up this challenge --Guerillero | My Talk 04:23, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

@Drmies:The current size is 61K would a size of 50ish K be good? --Guerillero | My Talk 04:30, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Guerillero--wait, 61K? I see 127,386 bytes. Drmies (talk) 16:05, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

127,386 bytes includes wiki markup, comments, etc... The recommendations in WP:SIZERULE are for the size of the prose, sans-markup. According to User:Dr_pda/prosesize the prose size, text-only, is 61 kB (9723 words). Article is basically on the edge of what is recommended. — Strongjam (talk) 16:11, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Alright, forget what I said about numbers: the article is way too long and too detailed. Drmies (talk) 22:28, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

One of the things that is beefing up the size are lengthy quotes from various sources, which, rough estimate, take about 33% of the prose length here. I've tagged the article with {{quotefarm}} to indicate this but this is probably just a matter of review each of the longer quotes and culling down to core statements from each. --MASEM (t) 07:12, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Simply cutting down redundant attack quotes would make this article much shorter and easier to follow.AioftheStorm (talk) 20:45, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, there are way too many quotes. The reason there are so many quotes is that every attempt to write a paraphrased summation of the mainstream POV based on those sources was summarily rejected as "introducing bias." If we could work toward expressing the mainstream POV in Wikipedia's voice, we could get rid of a lot of quotes. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:36, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Trimmed article by Totlmstr

I made a separate page for testing based on Drmies's recent edit (the one on whether Let's Players were mentioned), and I trimmed the article using Notepad++. It cuts the article down from the above 61 kB (9723 words) to 44 kB (6944 words). Note that I barely added anything on there and most of the work was deletions. You can check the abbreviated edit comment on there as an insight. I removed some of the references, and these were commented out at the bottom of the article. Totlmstr (talk) 04:17, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Wow. That's a huge difference. I tell you what, lots of people or not going to like it, but I do. (But I am not as familiar with the material as some others.) Thanks! Drmies (talk) 04:24, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome. It is a huge difference and the focus on this article is much better. There were at least three paragraphs dedicated to one source and multiple quotes in the same line that were too extraneous (a double quote by Anita in one sentence and three quotes by Kain in a row in three sentences; both were knocked by one each) and articles that focused on a blip in the controversy (An entire paragraph dedicated to a blogger and is not mentioned anywhere else in the article? How relevant is that?). Totlmstr (talk) 04:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I feel like this is a fair place to start working, but there's several removals that I think unnecessarily weaken the narrative, particularly in terms of addressing the movement's claims re: journalism ethics and DiGRA. Also, the "Attacks on women" section should not be smaller than "The Fine Young Capitalists" section, given the relative weight of the two issues in mainstream reliable sources (lots and lots of attention to the movement's attacks on women, not really any at all on TFYC). NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:44, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

At this point, I'm allowing the mods to just go ahead and edit this page as they need. My original edit was the base requirement I would like to see on the page proper. Also, I do not see how size comparisons are important here. Shouldn't it be the content? Totlmstr (talk) 04:59, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

We weight content based on its relative prevalence in reliable sources. That is, stuff that's discussed a lot in reliable sources should get more space than stuff that isn't. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:11, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

By following that at the general level, DiGRA has only mentioned GamerGate as a blurb on their website as far as I can tell with my simplistic Google searching. I can't find anything else that has a better leaning than TFYC, which organization was deeply involved with Zoe Quinn, at the center of a controversy for at least a solid month, amd part of the 4chan debacles involving Vivian James and several other things that are/should be in the TFYC article proper. I believe that until DiGRA releases their full length articles directly about GamerGate (they must have released something of note about the topic directly), their section really should be that short in the article in my opinion. Totlmstr (talk) 05:30, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

My objection re: DiGRA there is that you dramatically shortened DiGRA's response while leaving the attack entirely intact.

As for TFYC, they are, as per the reliable sources, more or less a minor footnote in this issue. While perhaps deserving more space than Anil Dash's incident, they don't deserve much more. They certainly don't deserve more space than the discussion section on "Attacks on women," for which Gamergate is far more notable. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:34, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

My point still stands. By all means, if you want to add something in, do so in the page I created. Totlmstr (talk) 05:47, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Totlmstr is just another zombie account. No edits for months and then right into Gamergate as if he's a neutral party. The fact that his draft of the article is removing more content critical of Gamergate and leaving in the stuff supportive of it is proof as such.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:38, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I explicity mention I am a lurker on Wikipedia and I follow my interests on my page. I normally don't go on Talk pages and I don't contribute that often to Wikipedia due to most of the pages I am on already have enough edits or sections. Additionally, I am more active off-site than on here, so "zombie account" may as well be half-correct. You are free to not listen if you so desire. Totlmstr (talk) 05:47, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

You're here from KotakuInAction though.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:50, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Do you even sometimes assume good faith? This article needs trimming and everybody knows it, but when someone tries to do it, people from either side shoot them down.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Skeletos (talk • contribs) 08:30, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

You removed the entire Anil Dash paragraph when there were multiple sources discussing it and using it as an example of how trolling and right wingers were exploiting the Gamergate movement.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:47, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Anil Dash (I do not know enough about the person) was, at the really basic level, threatened by an anonymous poster on her blog that she posted on a random day. It is not even known if it was even related to GamerGate at all, so I thought it would be best to hold on putting it up there than impulsively adding it in. It was explained in the earlier paragraphs that anyone could make threats of any kind and anyone can use the hashtag at will, but, so far, nothing of merit or confirmation as far as I know of has come out of it. And it was, like I said, a very small blip in the entire controversy; it is not mentioned anywhere else in the article as of my edit. Totlmstr (talk) 04:59, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm willing to say the Anil Dash thing was a flash in the pan that we can trim. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:11, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Anil Dash is a man who got harassed by that "lawyer" we're not allowed to talk about due to vague BLP violations who made himself to be a "leader" of Gamergate.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:40, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Generally agree on Totlmster's trimmed version, which primarily aimed at the quotes, and that helps a lot. I do agree that we should be focusing on a broader narrative and not get into weedy details like Anil Dash's aspect. --MASEM (t) 05:06, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Not at all. Totlmstr's just another Redditor from KIA trying to pull the wool over our eyes. His edits almost exclusively remove content critical of Gamergate while leaving lengthy sections that prove it right.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:43, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I am not entirely sure how my posting history off-site is relevant on Wikipedia. Totlmstr (talk) 05:50, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

It shows that you are not a neutral party here. And your proposed cuts show that as well.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:54, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

True, I am not a neutral party at all. However, I am judging the article based on the content and context of the article itself, not on the premise of whether or not this fits with me. I also wanted to take this challenge because the article is really way too long and needs to be compressed somehow. It is, however, a strange coincidence that the majority of the lengthy quotes (especially the paragraphs that I have deleted) were from that same side and had what would be redundancy in the paragraphs themselves. For example, the MetalEater paragraph in "Legitimacy over Ethics Concerns" section says, at the lowest level, the same thing as the paragraph right above it, and that has two articles referenced. Another example is the Grant remark in "Nature and Organization" is more concise and direct than the quote and remark combination before it. In both cases, these references can be moved to another location so that way the article doesn't talk about a single subject for too long (which you can edit in the page I linked, and I'm letting you do so without any interference from me as of that recent edit). Does Wikipedia really need multiple lengthy quotes back to back just to explain one point when an even better reference can do it that easily? Shouldn't some of these quotes be compressed so that way they fit the narrative? Totlmstr (talk) 06:20, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Finding redundancies is one thing. And as stated multiple times on this page (and in its archives) the quotes have been used because there have been a large contingent of users who have argued that the paraphrasing of these sources has not been adequate as it presents the information within that they have generally disagreed with as being written in Wikipedia's voice rather than the voice of the writer. While it may be useful to cut out some of these (and the Anil Dash paragraph/sentence) it just seemed odd at first glance. TFYC should be given less prevalence on the page if we are cutting out some of this other content (and I am still convinced we should merge the separate article to this one).—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:33, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I made this its own subsection, by the way. starship.paint ~ regal 06:37, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and WP:BOLDly created a subpage working draft, at Talk:GamerGate controversy/Working draft. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:13, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

NPOV tag removed

Wait, why was the NPOV tag removed? HalfHat 08:51, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Because the community at large, and not the vocal minority of editors on this talk page who believe the content of the page is biased, came to the conclusion that it was against Wikipedia's policies and guidelines to have this article persistently tagged as being "biased". Four separate editors who had never edited this article or its talk page before removed the tag and have been reverted time and time again by users heavily involved in editing the article rather than anyone who as any actual points as to how this article is biased (outside of Masem's arguments that it needs to treat both "sides" of the "debate" equally).—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:54, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Ryulong, please tell me why 5 limited editors at WP:ANI decide that a tag should be removed, it should suddenly be a consensus even though 5 other editors decided it should stay. That's absolutely gaming of the consensus policy and as such I've restored it. Tutelary (talk) 11:23, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

And I've removed it. Please contest the closure through the usual means, not through revert-warring. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:34, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

For what it's worth I strongly support this removal. After over a month without any substantial POV issues being raised it's time to drop the stick.

The RFC is a good example of how far awry the campaign to retain the tag has become. Essentially the RFC is attempting to suggest that we make an exception to our NPOV policy in order to produce an article more sympathetic to something nearly all of the reliable sources see as a misogynistic campaign involving very real harm to named people. I hope it's obvious why this is never going to fly. This is not the encyclopaedia you're looking for. TS 12:07, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I've seen this kind (This is not the encyclopaedia you're looking for.) of comments before on the talk page, not necessarily by TS. The impression I'm getting is that this is a comment aimed at SPAs and possibly implying the other editor is not here to improve the project. Just my two cents. starship.paint ~ regal 12:28, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

• LOL, this article and its editors have been taken before ArbCom three times already, editors here are constantly pointing to off-wiki discussions about this article and its editors, and there are continuous efforts to get editors banned from this article, and some of you are actually saying the NPOV tag shouldn't be here? This is one of the most disputed articles in Wikipedia, and some of you are trying to say there isn't a dispute over its tone? Cla68 (talk) 12:32, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
  • By the way, I haven't made a single edit to this article but I don't agree that it complies with our NPOV policy. So, I'm going to read the NPOV tag and I request that no one edit war it out until there is a true consensus on this talk page that the article's language has been made in compliance with our NPOV policy. Cla68 (talk) 12:39, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
    • a claimed "dispute over tone" is not one of the valid reasons for use of the tag. "The editor who adds the tag should discuss concerns on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies. In the absence of such a discussion, or where it remains unclear what the NPOV violation is, the tag may be removed by any editor. ... This template should not be used as a badge of shame. Do not use this template to "warn" readers about the article. The neutral point of view is determined by the prevalence of a perspective in high-quality, independent, reliable secondary sources, " There has been no articulation of "specific and actionable" issues and no valid claim that the article is not reflective of the reliable sources. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:44, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
      • and a determination was made at ANI that there was no valid claim on the talk page. Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#POV_tag_at_Gamergate_controversy_being_used_as_a_scarlet_letter "No ongoing discussion, so tag removed per consensus below. " -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:52, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

This is what Gamergate looks like to the world beyond 8chan and the POV represented in this Australian Broadcasting Corporation news segment broadcast yesterday, the mainstream POV of reliable published sources, is what Wikipedia articles are based on. Hint: "but ethics" gets precisely one mention, death and rape threats get many. Attempts to argue that our article is "biased" because it largely reflects the mainstream POV must fail. NPOV does not mean no point of view, it means we reflect points of view in proportion to their prevalence in reliable sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 12:57, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

"Gamergate sort of became an issue where people wanted to discuss ethics within games journalism, but because of the reaction towards her, it also became an issue about misogyny and the way women are treated in games." Can I just point out that one of your quote in one of your articles is that. HalfHat 20:14, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Personally, I don't see the article has having a NPOV because of the the structure. Yes, there has been harassment and misogyny, yes, this is the majority coverage in reliable sources. But the article doesn't fit the timeline, and the lead does not either. The journalism ethics part came first, then the harassment was a consequence. Yes, I know that the allegations against Quinn were proven false, but that didn't stop people from protesting against what they thought was journalism ethics. I feel that we should present the journalism ethics parts first, both in the lead and the body of the article. If you look at these three reliable sources (BBC, Boston.com and CNN, when they started explaining what is GamerGate, they've all gone into journalism ethics first. We can then discuss the harassment after framing the background of journalism ethics, because the harassment is a consequence to people reacting to a supposed breach in journalism ethics. [[User:Starship.paint|starship].paint ~ regal 13:02, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

No, the "journalism ethics" part didn't come first, because the alleged "ethics" concerns were foundationally illegitimate and a 10-minute "investigation" to determine that Nathan Grayson never wrote a review of Depression Quest would have revealed that. Moreover, even if there had been an ethical violation, it would have been committed by Nathan Grayson, not Zoe Quinn — yet Grayson was not targeted for anything. It is patently clear that there was never an intent to dispassionately and reasonably discuss journalism ethics — it was an excuse to go after Zoe Quinn with slut-shaming third-grade-level sex jokes, vicious abuse and unfounded personal attacks. Proving this is absolutely trivial — all I have to do is point to the IRC channel name and hashtag that were used. They had nothing to do with journalism ethics and everything to do with cheap chanboard lulz. Sorry, your argument doesn't even begin to pass the smell test. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 13:06, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree that ethics concerns were foundationally illegitimate. But that doesn't mean that the "journalism ethics" part didn't come first! Quinn was bombarded because people thought she slept her way to a review, right? Therefore she was attacked because people thought there was a breach in journalism ethics, even if the people thinking so were wrong. starship.paint ~ regal 13:15, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

No, the concerns were never about journalism ethics. If you're going to discuss journalism ethics, you don't do it in an IRC channel called #burgersandfries and spend all day making jokes about "Five Guys." If you're going to discuss journalism ethics, you criticize the journalist who allegedly wrote an unethical article, not his girlfriend. If you're going to discuss journalism ethics, you don't send death threats to that journalist's girlfriend. If you're going to discuss journalism ethics, you spend 10 minutes on Google to make sure you're not falsely accusing someone of something that didn't happen. A movement is not judged by what it says it's about, it's judged by what it actually does, and what Gamergate actually did is a matter of public record at this point.

Moreover, if this is about journalism ethics, where are all the apologies to Zoe Quinn for falsely attacking her? It is patently clear that the attacks on Quinn were false, ill-founded and made in bad faith, and that neither she nor Nathan Grayson committed any violation of journalism ethics. If Gamergate is truly interested in a conversation about ethics, they ought to start by having some ethics of their own by owning up to their colossal, catastrophic misjudgment. No, they simply doubled down on "LW1."

I'm sorry, this is a settled argument as far as the sources are concerned — GamerGate was built upon a foundation of specious allegations about a woman's sex life that led directly to misogynistic harassment and abuse of women in gaming. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 13:18, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not going to argue much further beyond this post. GamerGate started due to the allegation by Gjoni. The allegation, while false, presented a scenario of a breach in journalism ethics by Grayson, as well as a more general breach in ethics by Quinn. Therefore Gjoni started GamerGate regarding journalism ethics. The reaction to Gjoni were in two directions. The article itself states that Although the accusations of favorable coverage were refuted, the incident led to broader allegations on social media that game developers and the gaming press are too often closely connected and that cultural criticism of video games has led to an increasing focus on social representation and cultural meaning in games by some video games writers. Parallel to this, a campaign of harassment started, targeting Quinn and other female game developers, but this was still a consequence of Gjoni's post. "Five Guys" was a consequence, it was not the beginning. There would be no #burgersandfries without Gjoni's post, which presented a scenario which was indeed about journalism ethics. starship.paint ~ regal 13:34, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

if the Gjoni rantfest is the basis of your "but ethics" then you are sooooooo far out there that you need to turn your starship back towards earth. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:58, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I've conducted my arguments in a civil manner, I don't see the need for your "witty" snark if you're not really saying anything useful. starship.paint ~ regal 01:48, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

The same points are being raised again and again and again regarding this issue, showing to me useful discussion has stopped. I would advise anyone reading this who has become focused on GG to take some time out, go and maybe help to clear some of the backlogs, then come back later as and when there is new material to discuss. I was uninvolved when I closed the discussion, and I did look through the talk page and history before I made my close, which is how I reached my conclusion earlier. --Mdann52talk to me! 13:44, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

What are we to do when useful discussion has stopped? Dispute resolutions, RfCs, ANI filings, ArbComm cases have all been tried at this point. Can this really be only settled in ArbComm? starship.paint ~ regal 13:52, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

The specific issue of the tag abuse had to go to ANI, because editors here were edit-warring to retain it in express contradiction to how it is supposed to be used. Now that we're past that, we can all get back to discussing actual content again. Tarc (talk) 13:56, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

@Starship.paint: Unfortunately, nothing. I suspect ArbCom will have to go through this and sort it all out, because community sactions have failed to resolve this all. --Mdann52talk to me! 16:35, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh well, that sucks. Maybe I should take a break from this article, and maybe some extremely-involved editors should as well... starship.paint ~ regal 01:48, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Community sanctions were barely given a chance, Mdann52.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:20, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Actually, if you reread the discussion at AN/I, most uninvolved editors (such as myself) believe that the tag should remain until the NPOV issues can be resolved. If editors of this article cannot fix these problems, I suggest that they walk away from the article and let others try to fix it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:01, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

The problem there is, sometimes things are resolved, but not to everyone's satisfaction. A minority of actual (non-SPA) editors cannot be allowed to stymie the moving on from an issue that most editors no longer feel is an issue. This is reminiscent of Obama article editing circa 2009, when a tiny handful of very loud individuals wanted the parent article to be much, much more critique-based than it is now. Tarc (talk) 14:07, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

It would be helpful if editors who thought the tag should remain would give specific and actionable reasons. To date most of what I've seen as arguments range from the almost useful, but not specific "tone of the article" to the useless "delete it all." I see no current discussion on any specific POV issues. Unless one exists the tag should be removed. — Strongjam (talk) 14:12, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

There wasn't even a hint of a consensus. The tag removal should be reverted until the article meets a NPOV by most editors. Loganmac (talk) 15:25, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

{ping|Loganmac}} A discussion happened on ANI (one of the most watched pages on Wikipedia), and the comments there formed a clear consensus. If you wish to differ, I am sure you are aware of the relevant avenues to appeal this. The consesnsus was secured for me by the same issues being raised again and again; If no new issues are being raised, it is not really a discussion on the issue, more a tape stuck on repeat. --Mdann52talk to me! 16:35, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

@Mdann52:, what consensus? Tell me, which editors did you see particularly decide that made you close it as such? I 5 agree, 5 disagree, and a rambling discussion. I see no such consensus. Tutelary (talk) 20:25, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Another admin weighed in on the closure as not a matter for ANI. Probably best to just drop the issue of the closure in ANI as getting Mdann52 to revert will still leave the issue closed. You may have a case for WP:WRONGVERSION, or maybe a protected edit request requesting the addition of the tag outlining the reasons it's needed per WP:NPOV. — Strongjam (talk) 20:36, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Consensus does not require that we wait until the last bitter-ender and the final zealot agrees that they were mistaken. If that were the case, consensus would seldom or never occur. What is clear is that (a) the page reflects the overwhelming preponderance of the evidence; (b) those who believe the article lacks neutrality reflect a vocal WP:FRINGE movement; and (c) that fringe movement is being orchestrated and coordinated off-wiki as part of a political/public relations campaign. Assume Good Faith is not a suicide pact.

To those concerned that the article leans against Gamergate, I would argue that the narrative it adopts is actually too sympathetic. At this point, the best sources for the controversy have arrived at a rather difference narrative from the one proposed above:

1. A faction of gamers, unhappy at trends they perceived in game design, decided to attack specific game designers and scholars in order to punish them, frighten them into silence, induce them to leave the field, or convince their employers to dismiss them.
2. The ensuing campaign of vituperation included publishing details of the sexual histories and home addresses of prominent women in the industry, as well as email campaigns urging advertisers to withdraw business until the group’s targets were silenced.
3. This campaign was poorly received by the press.
4. In order to improve their image, the campaigners invented a claim that the press had behaved unethically, that it was (literally) in bed with their opponents, and therefore should be disregarded. (This argument is repeated many times above.)
5. This new claim that "it was always about ethics" was exploded because (a) few or no ethical questions were raised, much less proven, and (b) neither the timing nor the tactics adopted were consistent with these ex post facto talking points.

I would suggest that a neutral article might adhere more closely to the narrative above -- and expect that a year or two from now, it will. But for now, GG supporters should take comfort that the article is actually more favorable to their crusade than the sources justify or than their crusade deserved.

Finally, many thanks for the full page protection. Though I would argue, as I have done above, that the article departs from neutrality (though not in the way argued at such great length above), it is neutral enough, good enough, and well enough sourced to stand for the time being. Let things cool down for a few weeks (or, better, a few months) and we can return with fewer single-purpose accounts, less lobbying, and cooler heads. MarkBernstein (talk) 15:48, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, let's understand that tropes and characterization of women in games was criticized long before GamerGate. Second, concersn about journalism ethics in game reviews were around long before gamergate. Loosely, the battle was already being waged by gamers and major developers ("gamers") against so-called "Social Justice Warriors." The flashpoint came when a true allegation about Quinn (an Indie game developer that created games along social justice lines) having an undisclosed relationship with a journalist (also perceived as sympathetic to social justice causes) was made public by a third party (who, incidentally is also in the social justice camp and called out hypocrisy, not misogyny). While journalism impropriety was denied and no link between the journalists work and quinn was found, the relationship did exist and has the appearance if impropriety nonetheless. Gaming journals tightened up their policies as a result and other journalistic fields have always had these measures in place (as have other industries). Gamergate was born out of the belief that social justice was encroaching games and there was an active alliance between SJ game developers and journalists. Outspoken women in the community had already been targets of misogynistic campaigns and when Quinn was revealed as being involved with a journalist. "gamergate" started with the outing of Quinns relationship. When she pivoted away from defending the relationship to a position of being victimized, the "NotYourShield" campaign started. There's no question that these women were subjected to horrific outing and abuse by certain elements and gaming journalists have covered that aspect very heavily but it was also occurring before gamergate so that's not what gamergate is about. Gamergate is the point in time where gamers received information about a relationship between SJW and Game journalists. In its course it also uncovered GameJournoPros which also had an appearance of impropriety. This is all well sourced and documented. Gamergate certainly contributed to the harassment of Quinn but Sarkheesian had been harassed for a much longer time and it's rather myopic to tie her dispute with games to GamerGate. In any case, the Vox piece about politics in gamergate is an excellent reference as was the piece by a prominent mainstream game developer in the archives. It is on it's face, a false claim to say that gamergate started with misogyny when misogyny was occurring way before gamergate. --DHeyward (talk) 20:11, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

It is on it's face, a false claim to say that gamergate started with misogyny when misogyny was occurring way before gamergate. This doesn't parse for me. I'm also not sure what this has to do with the content of the article. — Strongjam (talk) 20:24, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Bupkis. Yes, women have been harassed and threatened with rape and violence well before Quinn and Gamergate; in some cases (e.g. Sarkeesian), that has been notable. Yes, anonymous men on the internet have been griping about "social justice" creeping into their gaming culture and about issues in gamer journalism, but neither of those were notable. "Gamergate" came about when Quinn's jilted ex posted a blog tirade, anonymous internet denizens saw that as grand proof of their latter 2 issues, and harassed (and continue to harass) the ever-living bejeezus out of Quinn and anyone who has defended her. These anonymous internet men can scream from morning to midnight that all they ever cared about was ethics, but what reliable sources have overwhelmingly taken note of here is the fact that women were threatened with rape and murder by people waving the "Gamergate" banner. That is what is notable, that is what the focus of this article is. It's great that others wave the Gamergate banner for ethics, but no one actually cares about that except for them. Encyclopedias are not platforms to right great wrongs, they are here to discuss topics factually and neutrally. It is a factually neutral thing to say that the predominant view of Gamergate is that it is about harassment, while mentioning "ethics" as a secondary aspect, i.e. the counter-claim. Tarc (talk) 20:33, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

When she pivoted away from defending the relationship to a position of being victimized... This is total garbage victim-blaming, DHeyward. Moreover, the belief that social justice was encroaching games is not an issue of journalism ethics. It's an opinion held by some people who don't like "social justice."

Loosely, the battle was already being waged by gamers and major developers ("gamers") against so-called "Social Justice Warriors." This is hilarious, given the clear and unambiguous stance of a wide range of "major developers" that Gamergate is a toxic cesspool of vicious trolling with a major negative impact on the industry. What "major developer" are you citing as opposed to these "social justice warriors," Brad Wardell? Or "RogueStarGamez" who has been sitting on his Kickstarter game project for two and a half years now with no apparent progress? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:43, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Actually, traffic to pretty much all the major gaming sites is up or flat, which is verifiable through Alexa. In fact, Kotaku's traffic has skyrocketed. GamerGate is having effectively no impact on viewership, as would be expected from a "movement" made up of maybe 10,000 people at most. Intel pulled out of Gamasutra, then backpedaled at 10,000 mph and a (non-RS, but viewable) Twitter post by Gamasutra's editor implied that Intel is already planning future advertising with Gamasutra. And that's it, there hasn't been anything else in weeks now. "Keep sending e-mails" doesn't work when everyone knows the score. The "impact" that GamerGate thinks it's having just isn't there, DHeyward. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:56, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Everybody please cool down. Highly questionable material about living persons will be removed. --TS 22:03, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

And please remember this is WP:NOTFORUM. If you dont have specific change you wish to discuss, please consider NOT posting. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:36, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I suggest adding the Controversial tag to this talk

It just seems odd to me it's not here there's been a lot of arguing on this page. Template:Controversial HalfHat 20:54, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

• Weak Support - Adding the tag to the talk seems non-controversial to me. A little concerned about template overload though. — Strongjam (talk) 20:57, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

On reflection and taking into consideration other comments, amending to weak support. I think a better solution might be to move the general sanctions template higher up so that it's more noticeable. Perhaps right below the BLP notice. I do share TRPoD's concerns about the load and save times which can be pretty bad at times. — Strongjam (talk) 16:56, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support - Much better than edit-warring over the NPOV tag. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:58, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose until supported by policy. This seems to be simply another attempt to attach a badge of shame to the page. MarkBernstein (talk) 21:12, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I have no idea why you'd think that, it's little more than a warning to editors. HalfHat 21:18, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support --DSA510 Pls No H8 21:16, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Something we can all agree on. (maybe) Tutelary (talk) 21:20, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support - This controversy is ongoing and while I disagree with the NPOV tags removal, it's more important to me that readers at least be notified that the editors are not at a consensus on the topic. Digman14 (talk) 21:35, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose as this seems to be yet another attempt to beat a dead horse. The sanctions notice tells everybody here we've got a severe conduct problem; going back to pretending it's merely a matter of lack of consensus within policy would be misleading. --TS 21:42, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support Even though NPOV discussions are still ongoing that tag was not producing consensus as the article is too controversial. Maybe when it dies down, the controversy will fade and neutrality will be achievable. --DHeyward (talk) 21:58, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
• in theory, why not, but every transclusion increases the load and save time for this already very long and slow page, and so for practical reasons, no, unless some of the other tags are removed/replaced -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:26, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support The decision to remove it was clearly made with no concensus. We tried to vote on it before. But then someone just said "this is not a vote" and removed it anyways, and those who protested got banned.--Torga (talk) 11:32, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

To clarify. This isn't for the NPOV tag, but for the controversial article tag and applies only to the talk page and hasn't be added or removed in the past to the best of my knowledge. — Strongjam (talk) 16:56, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support If an article is such a hot potato that labeling it controversial is controversial, then we have a controversial article. Also one in need of a rewrite. Skeletos (talk) 08:12, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Jimmy Wales approaching GG people to suggest to write their version (offsite)

Keeping in mind that Jimmy Wales cannot force any issue on WP outside of WMF office actions, he does have a vision for how WP should be. And he's asked the proGG side to write what they think this article should be like. (His tweet to them). I have very strong doubts we'd be able to us much they will create but it might be interesting if they have sources that we would take as RS that we have otherwise not used. --MASEM (t) 21:37, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

And in the first hour, they call the harassment of Quinn "alleged" and make a factually false statement about Quinn and Grayson. Pass the popcorn. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:40, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

inviting people whose edits here had to be oversighted so much that both the talk page and the article page are protected from open editing to make their baseless claims elsewhere off from reddit/8chan seems to me to have been an idea that was not quite thought through. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:30, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Yep, and it's going about as expected — doubling and tripling down on the accusations about Zoe Quinn's personal relationships, zomg Patreon, and nonsensical MSPaint "infographics." Because it's about ethics in gaming journalism, alright. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:11, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Sorry to interject, but AFAIK the use of "alleged" in this context would be appropriate - all real and potential misconduct illegal behaviour in this controversy will remain "alleged" until the conclusion of an investigation by the appropriate authority or until an appropriate judicial body has passed judgement upon the veracity of the claims or the guilt of any involved parties. This applied equally and fairly to any people involved in this controversy. To avoid "victim blaming" one could say, "ZQ was the victim of harassment. It is alleged that the perpetrators are aligned with the GG hashtag." Furthermore, "false statement" is harsh IMO. Why don't you (Baranof) say that they make a statement which is inconsistent with a specific RS that you have used.Jgm74 (talk) 01:13, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

tl;dr, "ignore the reliable sources because they're mean to Gamergate." Nope, we're not going to ignore the reliable sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:16, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

That really isn't a good argument, I doubt all the websites had fair trials against the people of GG where it was proven beyond all resonable doubt. HalfHat 09:43, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

No, but Wikipedia is not a court of law and we don't operate on a standard of proven guilt or innocence. Rather, we reflect the perspectives of mainstream reliable sources in proportion with their prevalence in said sources and let the chips fall where they may. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:54, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

If they do a good job of explaining their POV it could be referenced by RS we could source. HalfHat 21:48, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

No. Wikis, by definition, cannot be reliable sources for Wikipedia. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:52, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, no way that raw claims from that wikia or the other GG wiki sites can be used here. A reference we can check as an RS, sure, but not uncited claims. --MASEM (t) 21:55, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Which is why we site the RS for the opinions. HalfHat 21:56, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Wikia is a business founded by Jimmy Wales and Angela Beesley. It has no connection with Wikipedia and sites can have their own policies. He's quite a clever boy sometimes. --TS 21:50, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Auerbach

Auerbach has tweeted about some issues he has with our use of his articles. He has so far only explained one specific concern, but more could be provided. Specifically he criticized Ryulong's material regarding the Salon response to Auerbach's piece on GamerGate moderates. Hanchen's change to another detail was not mentioned, but I think the previous wording is likely to be seen as a better reflection of what he wrote.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:23, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

This is what happens when editor drive the narrative away from a clinically neutral stance. The less we try to read between the lines to stack up the case against once side, the less likely will misinterpret the sources. --MASEM (t) 23:29, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Masem, please don't turn this thread into yet another extension of an argument over editors' motivations and POVs, because we have plenty of those already. Let's focus on looking at Auerbach's critiques and addressing them. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:32, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Why am I being called out at all?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 00:15, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Having taken a look at the source material, I agree that the wording prior to Hahnchen's change ([Auerbach] argued that gaming culture is changing, with the ordinary video-game journalist being phased out in favor of video game enthusiasts and amateur Let's Play commentators who use YouTube and Twitch) is probably a better paraphrase, and it avoids the pointed word "accused." If we can get consensus for this change, let's throw up an editprotected request and get that fixed. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:32, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

In September, I tweaked Auerbach's statement in the article, because it had been edited to make it look like he was agreeing with Alexander.[2] I further trimmed bits of the article to make his stance stronger. Saying stuff like "gaming culture is changing" is the same as saying nothing at all. Instead of "attacking", we could use "alienating" which is what he used in his article.[3] - hahnchen 00:55, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I'd say this certainly warrants a proper checking. HalfHat 23:37, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I always wondered why we bothered with the Auerbach material; much of it is just this guy's opinion (and for what it's worth, we don't have an article about him). Do we need that material? --TS 23:41, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

To clarify, I think the problem is that we include a lot of he-said, she-said which is just pundits imposing their own predefined views on an unfolding situation. Looking back, much of the stuff from Kain, Auerbach and others seems almost surreally misplaced in the midst of all the death threats and all the slimy creatures that were parading themselves before our eyes on a daily basis. There's a place for media analysis, but it's possible to go overboard. --TS 23:50, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

You're basically advocating for the removal of opinions because they don't conform with your POV. HalfHat 00:02, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

No, I think this is just too much inside baseball and the article is very long. Why should Auerbach's opinions be mentioned in the article? --TS 00:57, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

This could be said for many other of the singular opinions made in this article. We are citing a lot of random people (journalists, yes, but with no skin in the game). It's fine to quote people like Quinn, Wu, etc. who are directly involved, and people like the DiGRA present (name slips mind) who's organization is being affected by this. It's also sometimes necessary to quote key RSes to give a "colorful" description that summarizes a point made by many sources. But there's a lot of other random quotes pulled into this article just to boost signal. --MASEM (t) 01:10, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Broadly speaking, I agree that there is rather too much chatter in the article. I can see how it happened. In the early stages the mainstream sources hadn't quite made up their minds what was going on and all the defaults kicked in. These voices have subsided in importance now that the true nature and origins of Gamergate have become more widely known. --TS 11:09, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Auerbach's tweets appear to be without merit, as this article is simply citing Elias Isquith's opinions of Auerbach's Slate piece. Remember the old "venerability, not truth" Wiki-standby. He has no leg to stand on, and argumentum ad Jimboem is just as much of a logical fallacy off-wiki as it is on-wiki. Now if we wish to have a discussion on whether to include any of this in the article at all, that's another matter entirely. At first glance it does seem like we're straying too much into opinion-of-an-opinion-of-an-opinion. If we're looking to slim down the article, this may be the edge to start at. Tarc (talk) 00:10, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Agree, an admin should probably close this section. If there are actually any issues, anyone David or Jimbo included, can post to the talk page. aprock (talk) 00:29, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Probably shut it, but I think it was right to post this anyway. It was worth looking into. HalfHat 00:31, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

This is a BLP issue. When you attribute a statement to a living person, and then that living person objects to your interpretation of that statement, that's a BLP issue. Tutelary (talk) 00:32, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

If you think there is a BLP issue, feel free to take it to WP:BLPN. aprock (talk) 00:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Or we could just clarify the statement. Take to a noticeboard when no need / fix the statement itself. I wonder which one... Tutelary (talk) 00:40, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

A subject disagreeing with an article isn't automatically a BLP issue. It's something to be concerned about, but expressly not dealt with in the same manner as BLP violations. If you disagree and feel this represents an issue covered under BLP, you may consider asking for help at BLPN. Protonk (talk) 00:49, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

• Let's start by cutting the "In Salon, Elias Isquith..." paragraph: as Tarc put it, an opinion on an opinion on an opinion. Drmies (talk) 02:22, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

  I don't think complete culling is necessary. It's a point-counterpoint situation.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:29, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

• Well, I disagree. It's rather counterpoint-countercounterpoint. I don't know who wrote that awful paragraph, but "actions in making himself a neutral party" is barely English, and "criticizing him for saying that women harassed and threatened and men attacking those who challenged their privilege should both be held responsible" doesn't look like proper English to me at all. Drmies (talk) 02:36, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

• I'm down with significantly chopping the Isquith paragraph. We could go down the rabbit hole with point/counterpoint. Perhaps just cut it to Isquith criticized Auerbach's analysis, calling it an appeal to moderation "that negates any group or individual responsibility" for Gamergate's behavior. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:49, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

• "and to better present the concerns of the Gamergate hashtag to the public at large"--I do not see that in the cited article. Unless someone can point me to the original sentence/section from which this comes, I'm going to remove it by executive privilege. Drmies (talk) 02:36, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
• "Auerbach criticized the Brandwatch study as being "defective quantitative analysis" aimed at stopping GamerGate" is now removed: the "How to end Gamergate" article doesn't mention Brandwatch at all, and the direct quote "defective quantitative analysis" is not given the appropriate context. Who added that sentence to the article? That person should not be editing sensitive articles on Wikipedia. Drmies (talk) 02:41, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
  • "WHAT DIDN’T WORK...Defective quantitative analysis." which links to this. That's the Brandwatch mention. Also that's in the full article view.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:51, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
    • Ryulong, I think I'm having a Javascript issue, which is why I didn't "see" that link--no, I see it now: Slate needs to read WP:COLOR; I can't see the difference, only when I hover over it. I still don't like the original sentence: I don't like how the Brandwatch study isn't explicitly mentioned in Auerbach's piece; I don't like that no real critique is offered in his piece, just the naked statement that it is supposedly defective. If someone feels a desperate need to stick that sentence back in, I suppose they have my blessing and all they have to do is ask some admin, which could be me, to stick it back in. Now, I don't know if Auerbach is watching this--hey, Mr. Auerbach, I don't have a Twitter account and it's much easier for us to respond here to specific points than it is to guess what you're pointing at. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 03:06, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
      • These are the reasons why I removed it in the first place, dubbing it a throwaway line. Right now, I think you should just remove the Salon paragraph, it's a badly written counter-point to an opinion that isn't even represented. - hahnchen 03:13, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
        • I'm about to look at that again; in the meantime I had to put a sick kid to bed. This Twitter stuff, that's fun. I just saw the whole page, this weird alternating sentences conversation, with someone yelling "kike" thrown in. Is that normal? Hey Jimbo, Wikipedia is not as bad as Twitter--I would have blocked that idiot on 6 November, which is the earliest "tweet" I saw from them. Drmies (talk) 03:22, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
• OK, by now Tutelary is telling me off on my own talk page and Tarc is yelling at Auerbach via Twitter. Great! I tell you what, I am happy I don't have many opinions, and the ones that matter, I prefer to keep to myself. In this thread, I see Tony Sidaway, Hahnchen, and Tarc (I think) agreeing that the Isquith on Auerbach paragraph could/should go, in varying degrees of emphasis. NorthBySouthBaranof offered a sort of compromise, and if you don't mind, I'm going to go with that--I have the feeling that Ryulong would like to have something kept. If anyone disagrees they can protest loudly here, and maybe Mr. Auerbach can tweet a few more tweets so we can see if he thinks this is OK, but NorthbySouth's brief comment has the benefit of a. being close to the source and b. being in digestible English. So I'm going to instate that, somewhat boldly, and we'll see what happens. Let's not have an RfC and a series of edit requests that will take forever to resolve. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 04:02, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
• Done. I've also moved it (what is now a sentence); why it was in the "Attacks on Women" wasn't clear to me. IM me if you got a serious problem with it, or call Jimbo (he can send me a carrier pigeon), or leave a note here. Thanks. Ryulong, I hope you're not too pissed at me. Drmies (talk) 04:08, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

  I'd go "At Salon" or "For Salon" rather than "In Salon" but that's just me.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:43, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I think it worthwhile to summarize what one part of what happened here clearly so that other Wikipedians reading this talk page are better able to understand the situation. David Auerbach, who writes for Slate (magazine), expressed a concern on twitter that "@jimmy_wales 152: "women...should both be held responsible for what Gamergate had become" = Isquith does not say I said this, and I didn't." [4]. This refers to the paragraph wisely removed by Drmies after the complaint. It is important that we be really clear - this is a BLP issue. Saying that a writer for a respectable publication was criticized for something as awful as saying that victims of harassment were responsible for that harassment is a serious claim, and it is a claim that was never in the source provided. Meanwhile, Tarc claims that his tweets were "without merit" and further, in Drmies words "Tarc is yelling at Auerbach via twitter." This is a disgrace. I am recommending that Tarc step away from this article permanently, and that if he does not do so voluntarily and continues with this kind of POV warrior behavior that he be topic-banned from this article. There are plenty of good Wikipedians here to look after the article - those who have been engaged in this as a battleground need to leave now.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:08, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I did not "yell" ant anyone via Twitter, I responded to someone who is in serious "doth protest too much" mode, that is all. What I do off-wiki is, quite frankly, not your business. @Drmies:, yes, I am in favor of the entire passage being removed if it is this problematic. Tarc (talk) 12:45, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, Tarc, I think you did, but I suppose it was nothing out of the ordinary for Twitter, and I don't think it has a bearing on your editing here. Jimbo Wales, I beg to differ; Tarc and I don't always agree, and I didn't agree with those tweeted comments, but I still think he's a net positive here, in the little that I have seen of this article and its talk page. Still, if we could all tone it down that would be helpful--then again, this was a lot worse a few weeks ago.

Look, I was happy to take Auerbach's points and apply them here, and even happier to see that we gained consensus quickly on what are simultaneously minor editing issues and major tone issues. I do not think that such matters are automatically BLP issues (as I saw somewhere else), but in this case incorrect (and/or inept) paraphrasing can amount to a BLP problem. If it hadn't been for a. serious editorial concerns about representation of sources and b. BLP issues I would never have edited this through protection. Anyway, all's well that ends well (for now)--let's look at this glass as half-full, shall we. Drmies (talk) 16:39, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

• I think the quotes aren't worth keeping because they're mostly tangential commentary and the article is already far too long -- journalists commenting on other journalists' specific pieces probably doesn't belong here unless it somehow becomes central to the controversy. But I don't think they were (originally) an entirely inaccurate paraphrase, either. The quote Auerbach is objecting to seems to refer to this line in Isquith's piece, which says, at the end: "The women bombarded with violence and abuse, the men hurling invective at anyone challenging their privilege; spurred by his unexamined need to find common ground, both, Auerbach writes, should share in the blame." The quote from the Wikipedia he's objecting to originally summarized that as: "...criticizing his insistence that women harassed and threatened and men attacking those who challenged their privilege should both be held responsible for what Gamergate had become." The only real issue in that is the words "...for what Gamergate had become", since the article doesn't explicitly state what it's accusing Auerbach of saying they should share the blame for, but I think that Ryulong / Tarc's reading is at least somewhat reasonable given the context (it's how I think I would have read the article, at least), and every other part of the quote is basically just Isquith's conclusion run through a thesaurus. Looking over the logs, the real problem started when Halfhat changed 'criticized his insistence' to 'criticized him for saying' here, which shows the problems with applying WP:SAY carelessly -- while it could technically be read the same way, that small tweak dramatically changed the sentence's meaning, since it changed what had been an accurate paraphrase of Isquith-presenting-his-interpretation-of-Auerbach ('Auerbach's article was insisting this') into something that could be read as a claim that Isquith-said-Auerbach-literally-said-this, which was not the case. I assume Tarc missed the fact that Halfhat had accidentally changed the quote's meaning -- it's easy to skim over something you've read many times before and impose a meaning on it in your head based on what you know it's intended to say from having seen previous versions, without noticing that that's no longer the most obvious reading. Anyway the main upshot of it is to please be more careful when replacing text for things like WP:SAY, because sometimes you'll be introducing different meanings; and please read the current version carefully when someone complains about it, trying to clear your head of how it used to read or what you know it's supposed to be saying. --Aquillion (talk) 13:27, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I have now been threatened by David Auerbach. I hope you're happy, The Devil's Advocate.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:02, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

• Dear Ryulong, given how you have misrepresented Auerbach with your edit, I think it's perfectly fine for him to "request" that you "please" never write about him again on Wikipedia. I don't know how you saw that as a threat; I would think this whole controversy has enough examples of threats already. Perhaps taking a break from this whole topic would make you happier? starship.paint ~ regal 08:24, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

  A journalist should not ever demand that someone else censor themselves from ever discussing them again or believe that he is being slandered. He is being fed lies and exaggerations by this movement because I would have never been singled out if it was not because TDA singled me out in his posting here.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:30, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

• Ryulong, I would like you to explain how I "threatened" you, which is a serious charge you have now made on my own talk page and here. I made a polite request (I used "Please" in the title), which I felt was more than reasonable given the circumstances of what had happened. Otherwise, I now politely request that you rescind your serious allegation that I "threatened" you. And, in light of this very discussion, I again politely repeat my request that you avoid citing or writing about me on Wikipedia. Auerbachkeller (talk) 17:30, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

So after making a BLP edit on him you now falsely accuse him of threatening you? And admins are supposed to be taking disciplinary actions? Loganmac (talk) 19:09, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

This is the single worst article on Wikipedia

You people ought to be ashamed of yourselves. This is the farthest thing from encyclopedic; it's regurgitated feminist propaganda masquerading as neutral information. It's the calculated exploitation of editors' highly legalistic and rigid interpretation of Wikipedia policy to create a POV article. The initial sentence isn't even free of clear bias; "The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014 and concerns misogyny and harassment in video game culture". Misogyny? Of course, no explanation given, no discussion as to the broader context of the controversy, no differentiation between trolls and seriously disconcerted, frustrated gamers. It's just "misogyny". A garbage article. This is why WP:IGNORE is such a crucial principle to follow; so articles like this cannot be maintained, endorsed, and all critics and dissenters sanctioned by admins and various other groups of individuals bent on imposing their intellectually vacuous and intransigent perception of rules onto an open, supposedly unbiased medium such as Wikipedia. JDiala (talk) 08:30, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

So do you have any suggestions for changing the article that meet WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, WP:BLP, WP:RS, etc.?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 09:07, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

There has been litteraly thousands of other versions that was better, however they did not stay long. --Torga (talk) 11:17, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

This is not an answer to my question.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 11:38, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

The first sentence (and others) don't conform to WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, WP:BLP, WP:RS, etc so objecting to it is perfectly reasonable. --DHeyward (talk) 17:26, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Why are you concerned about feminism? --Frybread (talk) 15:59, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

For what it's worth, we used to get similar comments on the global warming article talk page. In those days the scapegoat was "government scientist/United Nations propaganda", and here it's "feminists". Leave aside the death threats, that's all "propaganda." Those harmed are "professional victims", not even real people at all.

It's our job as an encyclopaedia to not ignore the facts presented to us by reliable sources. Advice on how we could do that better is always welcome. --TS 12:23, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Noone said we should "leave aside all death threats" even Wikis by proGG people mention harassment, this is a strawman. And you're comparing it to a conspiracy theory Loganmac (talk) 14:30, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Well to be fair, when I wrote that I was thinking of the alternative version on the Wikia site, which refers to all the harassment and the death threats as "alleged". I hope you're right to say that nobody here is involved in that horrible mess. --TS 15:00, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

GamerGate concerns

There is now a page on what is as close to an official GamerGate site as it gets giving an overview of various GamerGate issues.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 08:43, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Hasn't this been heavily criticized by another source in the article?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:45, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I doubt it: "Released: November 12, 2014" Racuce (talk) 10:22, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Well I recall something very similar to this having been found and then heavily criticized by an actual reliable source. Also there is really no way that we are going to include this as a source in the article because I'm fairly certain that the various screen caps of peripheral people's Twitter accounts is a no go for BLP when that Buzzfeed piece was thrown out completely without us even mentioning any of the people mentioned within. Also Gamergate.me is a wiki site or something isn't it?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 10:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

someone earlier had posted a "manifesto" to show that GG was all about ethics and then a site posted a markup version showing how every demand and claim was essentially anti-actual ethical reporting. (ie "If you dont like a game, you should give it to someone else on staff who does like it for them to review") i think we cover it, or we did at one point-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:01, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

its in the Debate over legitimacy section, paragraph starting "Blogger Kelly Maxwell,"-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:06, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I would recommend looking at the source first and then decide if it can be used. I don't know who you classify as peripheral people, but this source is highly focused on the corruption in gaming journalism and the involved parties. GamerGate.me is a site to inform the community, it has a blog,a wiki and now also a press section. Racuce (talk) 11:10, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

If any of this material ever shows up in reliable sources, then it may find its way into the article. What I find most amusing is that, after a few paragraphs insisting that it's all about ethics in gaming journalism, they switch to discussing Metacritic and start accusing developers of submitting "perfect" user reviews for their own game. --TS 11:19, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

It's also interesting to read the accusations of developers gaming reviews in one breath, and 10 words later find an attack on a review site for posting its honest opinion of a game, because according to Gamergate, its honest opinion was wrong. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:53, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Please stop this kind of soapboxing here, NorthBySouth. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:56, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

It's not intended as soapboxing, FPaS, it's intended as an observation about the quality of the source and the potential validity of its content. Lord knows there's been plenty of observations here about mainstream reliable sources being "biased." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 12:03, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Discussion of a proposed source is appropriate here. I think the problem in this case is that it's a putative primary source. Discussion of its merits will almost inevitably descend into soapboxing. Fortunately our policies mean the merits are largely immaterial here. I am withdrawing my comments on the merits. --TS 12:37, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to see a press source point to this to show it exists and acknowledged (it may take a day or two to get out), and perhaps comment (Either way) on it, but agree that we should only be looking for their primary claims to report here (several which I know we can corrobate w/ reliable sources such as Doritosgate), and not get too far in the weeds on their reasoning. --MASEM (t) 16:05, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Grammar error

In the third paragraph under "False allegations against Quinn and subsequent harassment", the quote from Zoe Quinn's BBC interview doesn't have a closing quotation mark. A quotation mark should be added after the phrase "she had sex with someone."—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:53, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Done. I've also demoted that section to a third-level heading below "history", as that seemed to be implicitly intended; let me know if that was mistaken. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:12, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Yeah that was a mistake. The "history" section is for events that took place before Gamergate was a thing. That header is the beginning of the discussion of the actual events rather than "history" which was previously a "background" section if I recall correctly.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 10:38, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Ah. Well, I can certainly revert it, but it just looked weird to me. Are "Further harassment and threats" and "Industry response" really meant to be sub-sections to "False allegations against Quinn and subsequent harassment", rather than to "History"? If that previous bit was called "Background", it would be a bit more transparent. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:43, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain it used to be Background rather than History at least.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 12:01, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I found another weird error. There's a reference that has "Gamergate is dead" repeated twice for its title. It's from the verge and it's written by Plante.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 10:47, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

In this correction by Fut.Perf., somehow he finds a duplicate reference and converts it to the <ref name="whatever"/> format in the {{reflist}} list. Can it be removed?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:25, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Working draft

Since this is probably going to get lost in the thread above... I've set up a working draft at Draft:Gamergate controversy, and invite folks to work on potential improvements that might gain consensus for a protected edit request. My first series of edits have been trims in the vein of that above thread, working to reduce redundancy and tighten the prose. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:31, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Can it be moved to Gamergate controversy/Working draft? It would make it easier for discussion about the draft. Or is full protection cascading? Retartist (talk) 09:53, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

If it's in the article space it gets treated as an article rather than a sub page and that means it gets indexed by search engines and such.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 09:58, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, as per Ryulong above, unfortunately it has to be stuck in the talkpage space. Would be nice to have a better solution for article working drafts... maybe that's something the WMF could look at for a MediaWiki update *cough*Jimbo*cough*. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:59, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

There's a draft space for articles for creation submissions, last I checked.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 10:06, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Opposing this because this shouldn't be used as a way to avoid discussion of the topics and a reaching of consensus, and that's exactly what's happening with overly pushy editors to the draft. I like some of the changes and editing, but this is too open to abuse. I made a number of reasonable changes, and someone went in and undid them all. It's a nonsense effort. Abandon. Willhesucceed (talk) 15:00, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

That's how wikis work. Have you tried reverting the changes and discussing why you disagree with them? --TS 15:24, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I've moved the page to Draft:Gamergate controversy so it has its own talk page. Also, Willhesucceed, you can't do what you did either.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:51, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I know we don't see eye to eye, but thanks for taking the time to set this up, it allows some semblance of continuous editing to occur. I wish the regular article wasn't locked, but this is the next best thing. Any idea on if/how changes will come over from the draft to the actual article? Skeletos (talk) 08:30, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

When a consensus forms.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:33, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

The best bet is to take it section by section... so make some edits to a section and then open a new subsection here for discussion, like the above discussion on the Mike Morhaime deal. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:52, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

That sounds good. I was worried that there would be a lot of reverting by people who didn't participate in the draft. Skeletos (talk) 08:54, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

ESRC researcher Amanda Potts on the importance of industry leadership in the opposition to misogyny

Here is a neat little trade news piece about an ESRC report on the importance of industry figures taking the lead in attacking sexism and misogyny. Attitudes in a gaming community were studied in the presence and absence of inclusive video presentations, with predictable results. The report's author, Amanda Potts, relates it to Gamergate as follows:

“What we are seeing with #GamerGate is that the more powerful video producers and professionals are divided in their points of view, and are taking up arguments for both sides of the story. So this leads to divided opinions amongst the different fan communities, who aren’t being given a strong enough message that abuse of women and other groups perceived to be in the gaming minority is wrong.”

This could probably find a place alongside the account of Morhaime's almost solitary stand, amongst comparable industry figures, directly against the violence and hatred indelibly associated with Gamergate. As time passes this section is slowly acquiring more prominence than the minutiae of who said what on 4chan. --TS 13:06, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Time to revisit and revise

I agree with Jimmy Wales that all reported speech comes under the BLP and must not be misrepresented. But there's another issue here: our analysis is often tainted by recentism. While that's inevitable and part of what makes Wikipedia such a popular source for ongoing events, it does entail a need for continuous curation, so as to revise the emphasis in places where the news cycle concentrated on whatever new shiny object was presented to it. We probably shouldn't give so much to the opinions of individual commentators where they deviate from the thrust of reliable sources.

In the early days, for instance, Erik Kain's well written essays became popular with some of the article editors and so he's been used as a principal source in many parts of the article. That kind of historical accident suggests to me that, while there's nothing wrong with sourcing an individual commentator on facts, sometimes we may want to go back and revisit sections where we reproduce their opinions.

In the end, to take a prominent example, only Breitbart thought there was anything scandalous about journalists communicating with one another by email, and so we discuss the non-story of the GameJournoPro mailing list through the lens of Kain gamely attempting to rationalise a non-existent controversy. Surely many other sources have discussed this in a more measured way, and the fact that the vast majority of sources don't even consider mailing lists controversial at all seems to be lost in our article. Yet that's the important story, if there is one--that no reliable source regards GameJournoPros as the smoking gun Gamergate insist it is. So why does it get a section of its own? How best to summarise a mild fuss over the fact that journalists use email to communicate with one another? That's one example of where I think we could improve our coverage.

The big slew of death threats and wild accusations of impropriety that characterised Gamergate is now largely over, so we now have time to revisit sections like this. It's a normal function of Wikipedia editing. --TS 12:08, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Kain is given way to much weight considering ever piece we cite from him is WP:NEWSBLOG and not subject to Forbes editorial oversight. — Strongjam (talk) 14:03, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

If that is true then he may not be such a reliable source. --TS 14:26, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

He's also a salaried paid Forbes writer, and has a good history, so the Video games project considers him a situational source for video game related matters, but I don't think it's a good source for a controversial topic like this. I'm fine with citing him for his opinions, but we need to be careful not to give him undue weight. Might be a matter for the WP:RSN though. — Strongjam (talk) 14:37, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

He is a Forbes "Contributor" which means while he might be paid by Forbes, he is not in their direct employ (we've looked at this at the VG project long before GG started). Their work is not part of the normal editing process, and while likely checked for any outright problems before posted under Forbes name, it is basically a glorified SPS. Now, Kain's remarks prior to GG have been recieved and recognized by other RSes before, so him, like Paul Tassi, are considered situational sources, such as commentary on a video game. However, in this specific scenario, Kain's weak reliability may not make him a good source unless he has brought a unique opinion to the table. --MASEM (t) 16:15, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

With that in mind, there are a couple of places where we should be more clear about what his role at Forbes is. For example In Forbes, Erik Kain described the character, could leave the reader thinking Kain was writing for the magazine. The first sentence in the "Social Criticism" section as well seems to give him too much weight, but that whole paragraph is basically a quote farm and we should probably deal with that first. — Strongjam (talk) 16:31, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Yet sites like Boing Boing are given space. Why something tells me Erik Kain is getting rid off of the article because of what he writes and not where he writes Loganmac (talk) 14:45, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I did point this out before, Boing Boing is an admitted group blog. Ryulong argued for it because 1) many other WIkipedia pages use it 2) the author of the article is the managing editor of Boing Boing. I'd still advocate for its removal anyway. starship.paint ~ regal 14:50, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't consider Kain's reliability to be an issue as were not using him as a sole source for any fact (or shouldn't be). I just think we can spend time rearranging the coverage to eliminate the effects of recentism, as I discussed above. Erik Kain's excellent early coverage was very important in the early stages of the article, and he's just the primary example that came to my mind when thinking of this. I certainly don't think we should eliminate references to his work. --TS 14:47, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

On the Boing Boing thing, the whole Vivian James thing seems overdone to me. I'd rather see a much smaller section on this icon with a few well picked sources, than one that seems destined to blow up because of the rape meme that forms its colour scheme. We've already got lots of material on the Gamergate supporters' seeming imperviousness to bad optics. --TS 14:54, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I tried removing it, but NBSB reverted me back. Since I don't want to violate 3RR, I didn't revert the reversion. --DSA510 Pls No H8 17:27, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Concerning imperviousness, these are gamers. People who grind a level for hours on end to get that final coin, get that esoteric achivement, etc. To put it in their own words, "Gamers don't Die. They Respawn". --DSA510 Pls No H8 19:48, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

On the prior arbcom case that was rejected, one non-involved user did suggest this articles suffers from recentism, and also suggested that the best way at the present is to eliminate much of the opinions and stay closer to the facts, only coming back to the opinions once the whole GG thing has settled or died down. This is in that vain - at least when it comes to an opinions that were try to make broad statements during, say, August and September. (This would include Kain's pieces) There are some parts of the history of events that are tied to opinions (And vice versa) that have to be kept but a lot of the opinions presented in the latter half of the article are in the recentism vein. --MASEM (t) 16:01, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

• Masem, what do you think of cutting the second and third paragraph of "Support for The Fine Young Capitalists"? It has a main article, so all this is quite excessive. Or at least cut the second paragraph and condense the third (one-sentence) paragraph. Drmies (talk) 18:34, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
  • I've been arguing for a culling of that part for a while (there's things on both sides of the issues that can be trimmed out), TFYC has always seemed like a minor point here that we can't really fit well into the narrative but not to remove entirely. --MASEM (t) 18:37, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Well I won't pretend three editors makes consensus, but we do seem to be agreeing on removal of some of the minutiae, particularly commentary. It may be worth exploring that further to see if we can broaden consensus on that. -TS 18:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

We could trim the GameJournoPros paragraph, taking out Erik Kain and James Fudge's back-and-forth. Also probably we don't need to give Zaid Jiliani a whole paragraph in "Political views." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:44, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

The fate of the GJP section might depend on if that press statement by the Gamergate side is covered in any detail, since that is one of their specific complaints that can be addressed. I'd hold off on that for the moment, though agree without any other sources to highlight it, it's bulky. Agree on the Zaid part. --MASEM (t) 19:23, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Reliable sources, atmosphere of intimidation

Sections that do not have a specific proposed edit or issue to discuss tend to degenerate into general sniping, as this one has. Gamaliel (talk) 21:43, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I haven't read the entirety of this article; it is so long and cumbersome that just glancing at it gives me vertigo. Unless I'm missing something, it deals with the harassment of female gamers and journalists rather the factual accuracy of the claims made by Anita Sarkeesian and other critics — right? As a disclaimer from a gamer, I'm critical of Sarkeesian's work. I initially came out in full support of Tropes vs. Women and I think she raises numerous valid points, but I feel these are grossly undermined by the tactics that she has used in conveying her perspective. To give an example, her coverage of Hitman: Absolution. I'm sure most everyone here is already familiar with Thunderf00t, one of the more prominent supporters of GamerGate on YouTube (Redacted). I'm not going to conduct a character assassination against anyone and I know that Sarkeesian is not the only woman targeted by the GamerGate controversy, but let's face it: she's probably the one who has received the most attention for her views. As for the situation with Zoe Quinn, I've yet to play Depression Quest so my perspective on the matter is somewhat limited. I have struggled with severe clinical depression for a very long time. The notion that someone is trying to give people a better understanding of the condition is very appealing to me (whether it can actually be conveyed is another story). It doesn't really matter though; harassment is always wrong (Redacted). So now that my biases are out in the open, I'll say what I feel must be said. I've been hesitant to speak out about this particular issue because I have strong and conflicting opinions about it. I'm worried that if I criticize Sarkeesian's misrepresentations (as outlined by Thunderf00t and others), then I'll be shot down by other editors for promoting a fringe view that doesn't have very many reliable sources to back it up. It would also associate me with the misogynist element of the gaming community, and I want no part of that. Conversely, if I say that I support the merits of her activism and consider the harassment levied against women in the gaming community to be vile, then my words could be taken as a ringing endorsement of Sarkeesian's methods and the perennial OR catch-22 (i.e. knowing the facts, yet presenting sources that run counter to them because of their credibility). I can't be the only one who is uncomfortable even posting on this page for that very reason. What's there to be done? Kurtis (talk) 17:15, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Good. Please don't, then. I've removed (per BLP) a large amount of material from your comment that sounds like the same kind of vile nonsense that gets out given as an excuse for the hate campaigns against women in gaming. There is no reason for that to be here, because the hate mongers who spread this nonsense are not reliable sources. If you feel that you cannot comment here please undergo dispute resolution. TS 18:26, 13 November 2014 (UTC) I don't believe anything I posted in my original comment violated BLP in any way, although I'm sure most others would disagree with me on that point (your removal appears to have the implicit support of all other participants in this discussion), so I won't re-add my original text. I feel my comments were well-substantiated and targeted the crux of her criticisms, rather than making baseless accusations and casting her in an unduly negative light (which is what you've implicitly accused me of doing). I find the equivalence you've drawn between my words and the "vile nonsense"/"hate campaigns against women in gaming" to be absolutely disgusting and a complete mischaracterization of my original post. In all my years of editing this site, I have never felt so offended as I do now. Kurtis (talk) 20:27, 13 November 2014 (UTC) A large problem here is that the viewpoint towards Quinn/Sarkeesian's views (prior to GG) are not well documented. I know I can read lots of forum threads about how come see that, but we have very little reliable sources about them. We have some that extend from the Depression Quest commentary on Quinn which are already in the article, but that's pretty much the extent that I know I've found. As WP can really only work on what is reported by reliable sources, we really cannot express those views further until they are properly covered. --MASEM (t) 17:26, 13 November 2014 (UTC) This article is not about Sarkeesian and any potential "misrepresentations" some may attribute to her. It is about the gamergate controversy. and "no matter what the victim has done to attract it" WOW! -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:04, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Yes, exactly. There is no justification for harassment, which was my central point. Please do not take my original comment out of context. I'm not trying to suggest that she "had it coming" or anything like that. Kurtis (talk) 20:27, 13 November 2014 (UTC) I just watched part of that video and read some of the comments, and now I'm going to wash my eyes. Drmies (talk) 18:43, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Keep in mind that the source of harassment isn't known fully. In before le No True Scotsman maymay. And, again, "The harassment obviously came from the all the males of gamergate"[1] Source: Gawker. --DSA510 Pls No H8 18:41, 13 November 2014 (UTC) au contraire, my dear friend. Sarkeesian's threats are explicitly sourced from those claiming affiliation with gamergate. When you run a "movement" that's only identification is the use of a hashtag, you get "credit" for all done under the name of the hashtag, something the next generation of "movements" will probably keep in mind. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:48, 13 November 2014 (UTC) I'll see your link and raise you a [5] [6]. --DSA510 Pls No H8 19:01, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Yes, the largest newspaper in the state of Utah is "propaganda." Sure, makes sense. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:11, 13 November 2014 (UTC) There were two specific threats at USU. The first, the one that inferred the Ecole Polytech shootings, had no explicit GG attachment, though it is assumed by most to be a GG one. The second was specifically from someone claiming to be GG, but it wasn't the same type of threat that the first one had. And no, we as WP editor cannot write this assuming that if someone did it under the hashtag, that everyone supporting the hashtag is responsible - we do have plenty of sources criticizing anyone that wants to actually discuss ethics to either get away from GG and use a new tag, or clearly call out condemnation of harassment in a unified voice so everyone knows its trolls usurping the hashtag. --MASEM (t) 18:55, 13 November 2014 (UTC) This might be related to my previous section about reorganizing the article. The topic of this article is not clear, because what the phrasing "gamergate controversy" is one person will be different for another, even if the way the phrase is taken in the way to mean "the ethical issues" is a fringe view, it still is a far different meaning. We really need to have it determined by consensus and reflected in the article what this article is specifically about. If it is about the movement (which would then be heavily weighted necessarily by its criticism) then yes, the issues about Quinn/Sarkeesian before GG started are valid if they can be reliably sourced. --MASEM (t) 18:45, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Back to the topic at hand. what specifically do you wish to change in the article and what sources are you basing that recommendation on? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:24, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Sorry for the unclear original post, I had an appointment to attend and was in a bit of a hurry. My problem is with the overall atmosphere of anything related to Gamergate, Sarkeesian, Quinn, or gender equality. Whether you agree or disagree with one side of the dispute, I don't think anyone would deny that it's a patently toxic editing environment. I feel as if Tony Sidaway's post above is emblematic of exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about: being critical of Sarkeesian (or any other activist) in any way, shape, or form is equated to misogyny or a character assassination. Even if you agree with the merits of their position (that women are given unfair representation in the media, particularly in video games), you can still say that you disagree with some aspect of how they are representing their case. Surely there must be some academic sources that delve into detail about a more critical perspective, sans the abject sexism. The same can be said of being fully supportive of Sarkeesian's position, where those who back her are accused of pushing a "feminist agenda" or the like. This sprawling talk page and its archives are so intimidating that no one in their right mind would willingly subject themselves to the pressures of editing this article unless they were willing to pick a fight. I'm trying to get the ball rolling so that we can take a good, hard look at ourselves and realize that these gender wars are a corrosive influence on our ability to act rationally. I don't think dispute resolution has yet achieved a satisfactory editing environment. Oh, and in case it wasn't clear, I want to reaffirm that I do not in any way condone the vile harassment campaigns that women within the gaming community have been subjected to. To repeat what I said above, I didn't mean to imply that the victim of harassment had it coming or anything of the sort. That was a mistake on my part. Kurtis (talk) 20:45, 13 November 2014 (UTC) It's been established nobody here condones the harassment. --DSA510 Pls No H8 20:53, 13 November 2014 (UTC) I had assumed as much. Kurtis (talk) 21:09, 13 November 2014 (UTC) If you have a user conduct issue, take it to the board set up for user conduct issues Wikipedia:General sanctions/Gamergate/Requests for enforcement do not whine or cast aspersions here. If you have a specific article content edit, be clear about what should be changed and supply sources. If you just want to comment and discuss, go somewhere else, this is NOT a chat forum -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:23, 13 November 2014 (UTC) I don't think the general sanctions are doing enough. Do you not notice the level of rancour that has taken hold on this talk page and in any other discussion pertaining to Gamergate? There's an open request for arbitration right now, and honestly, I'd like for them to accept a case. If not, then I think we need to seriously consider discussing ways in which to tone down the atmosphere of this page and others. No one wants to edit an article whose talk page is on fire. I'm actually going to disengage myself from this topic. It's clear that I feel too strongly about it to contribute impartially. Sorry I wasted your time. Here's hoping you can all find a way to collaborate effectively on this subject. Kurtis (talk) 21:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC) This page is not for whining the the general sanctions arent doing enough when you are making any effort to use them but are just whining about editors here. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:44, 13 November 2014 (UTC) TheRedPenOfDoom, take it easy please. There is no need to browbeat everyone who comes along. Kurtis's comment may be seen as forumposting to some, but there is no denying that this is not a pleasant work environment, and you're not helping. Drmies (talk) 03:07, 14 November 2014 (UTC) Indeed. I suggest that TheRedPenOfDoom take a week or so to cool off. I'm trying to minimalize my snark, at the very least. --DSA510 Pls No H8 04:05, 14 November 2014 (UTC) My original comment was restored by The Devil's Advocate (with the link to the video redacted).[7] Just thought I should mention that for reasons of disclosure. I'm sorry if I offended anyone; looking back on it now, this post was probably ill-advised. Kurtis (talk) 21:39, 13 November 2014 (UTC) For what its worth I've archived it. --DSA510 Pls No H8 04:05, 14 November 2014 (UTC) If you're just a user you should never be cutting away other people's comments, even people higher up the food chain should be cautious with this, the only person that can just cut away a comment is the user that posted it. HalfHat 21:49, 13 November 2014 (UTC) All editors are urged to remove content that might violate WP:BLP even if it's a talk page comment.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:55, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Okay never was too strong. But BLP applies to almost none of that, cutting all that away to a sentence that looked like it's only purpose was to take a dig was out of order. HalfHat 22:11, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Kurtis, I think I understand what you're getting at. From my perspective, here is the issue. There is no way to put this delicately, so I'll just say it. Gamergate is demonstrably a fringe POV. While their supporters are very vocal on a few Internet social media forums (most of them entirely anonymous) their actual numbers are small and their claims have garnered no mainstream credibility — to the contrary, in mainstream sources their claims have either been widely refuted or widely dismissed as nothingburgers. The weight of mainstream reliable sources is simply indisputable at this point, and so many Gamergate supporters have retreated into a conspiracy-theory realm where all sources are biased against them, except for those which agree with them. (A self-fulfilling prophecy.) I am neither a "gamer" nor a "social justice warrior" — I first took interest in this issue when the community was made aware on a noticeboard that Wikipedia pages were being used to spread unfounded claims about living people and, as became obvious, further a campaign of vile harassment against them. Rather than acknowledge the movement's foundation in specious slut-shaming trolling, Gamergate is now attempting to whitewash the past and portray itself as a noble crusade for "journalism ethics," despite the fact that reliable sources all but universally view it as a purveyor of misogynistic harassment and retrograde culture warring. It is difficult to collaborate to build an article when there is insistence on portraying a group not as the overwhelming weight of reliable sources portray it, but as it wishes to be portrayed for public relations purposes. This we simply cannot do. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:07, 13 November 2014 (UTC) I was initially anti-gamergate, then after digging for stuff myself, I'm very skeptical of the claims. Also I started using adblock again. I'm a skeptic, and there's something massively wrong about all this. In before "the misogyny". On a personal note, if anything, I should be pro-gg, since they don't reduce my condition(s) to some fashion statement on tumblr. --DSA510 Pls No H8 22:16, 13 November 2014 (UTC) What annoys people like me is the gross-generalisation of everyone in the movement. I know that a lot of harassment has happened but it is annoying when everyone in the movement is labeled (or implied) as a woman-hater when it can be seen that quite a few people on the other side are misandrist and the media ignores that. Retartist (talk) 22:34, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Your "personal annoyance" is COMPLETELY irrelevant. You need to toss it out the window and start editing from Wikikpedia policies WP:UNDUE and the WP:RS sources. Period. END OF STORY. If you keep tendentiously editing based upon your "personal annoyances" rather than the sources, you will be banned from the subject or the site. The choice is yours - shape up or you WILL get shipped out. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:51, 14 November 2014 (UTC) It’s not clear that DSA510 's, or anyone's, personal beliefs or inclinations or skepticism or afflictions is pertinent here. We're discussing the improvement of an encyclopedia article, based on reliable source. NorthBySouthBaranof's summary, on the other hand, nicely explains the problem: It is difficult to collaborate to build an article when there is insistence on portraying a group not as the overwhelming weight of reliable sources portray it, but as it wishes to be portrayed for public relations purposes. But this is precisely the torque that is being repeatedly applied here. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:29, 13 November 2014 (UTC) At present, the article's introduction starts with a conclusion about the nature of an ongoing event. The article then goes on to search for proof of this conclusion. If this were an academic paper, it would be failed. The intro should really start with the questions and run down a quick discussion of the key elements of the debate. Not the key conclusions of the debate. The key events and people, with info about why the reader should even care. The first sentence opens up and it declares Gamergate is misogynist. Like it's just open and close - we've got this statement about the group's morals before there's even any evidence to support the conclusion. People aren't frustrated with this article for PR reasons exclusively. It's also because the article is very badly written and it's unpleasant to read. YellowSandals (talk) 07:33, 14 November 2014 (UTC) There isn't a "question" here, though. The conclusion is drawn from the reliable sources, and the reliable sources are virtually unanimous in describing the key point of this controversy being misogynistic harassment of women in video gaming. The front page of The New York Times, The Colbert Report, NPR, PBS NewsHour, on and on and on and on... the focus of those sources is the misogynistic harassment, with "journalism ethics" receiving little more than a throwaway mention that Gamergate supporters claim it as a justification. I know Gamergate supporters think all of those reliable sources are biased and conspiring against them and so forth... but Wikipedia does not traffic in such theories. Our articles are weighted with the mainstream POV predominating, and the all-but-unchallenged mainstream view of the key points of the Gamergate controversy is as this article describes. That Gamergate supporters disagree with these mainstream sources' portrayal of the issue is of no consequence. We can, should and do mention the POV of Gamergate supporters, but at it is demonstrably a minority POV, it will not be given the prominence or credence its supporters wish it to have. If at some future point, all of those reliable sources reverse course and embrace Gamergate, then, thanks to the handy editing features, we can edit the article to reflect that change. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:06, 14 November 2014 (UTC) It's weighted with crap writing, unsubstantiated personal opinions several editors here hold, laughing dismissals of all outside perspective, and slanted quote farming. The article is basically just an anti-GG echo with very little real substance in it. Take the final paragraph of the intro even. It doesn't mention misogyny, but it states, in factual manner, that Gamergate is mad because games are closer to art now. This in spite of the fact that discussion about games as art has been going on for maybe a decade or longer, with notable commentary from Roger Ebert, and hardcore fans are not explicitly against the perception of games as art. Why does the article say that? I'm pretty sure it's because the article lacks all sense and perspective, and it has basically no idea what in the heck it's talking about. The article is stupid because it contains all these convenient explanations and theories on human behavior. As though you could just look at people and say, "Yeah, this is the reason everybody does things". It's one of the biggest earmarks of ideological writing, since an ideology often believes it can classify people by assigning absolute good and evil as motivations. It seems like many editors here just kind of vaguely heard about Gamergate but don't really understand how the conflict came to develop, and they don't want to know. The conflict is "because mah soggy knees", and Wikipedia needs to tell everyone that, oh yes, all THESE people are misogynists. We done figured it out. Jury is in. Everybody do the ridicule. YellowSandals (talk) 16:55, 14 November 2014 (UTC) In the sense of the saying "better to light a candle than curse the darkness", I'd like to cordially invite you to join the discussion of specific ways to improve the article within Wikipedia's content policies. Strictly speaking, just saying the article is all wrong because some of the editors are bad people with wrong opinions and no willingness to listen to alternative interpretations is a conduct issue and should be taken to appropriate venues already set up on the wiki. --TS 18:16, 14 November 2014 (UTC) Consider writing a factual account of the controversy, the events in it, and how it relates to the reader. As opposed to a useless, lengthy, ideological piece full of purple prose about misogyny. I didn't say anyone's opinions were wrong. I said the writing is ideological, substandard, poorly organized, and all around just kind of deconstructive. YellowSandals (talk) 18:53, 14 November 2014 (UTC) In fact, if this article wasted less time talking about misogyny and instead just discussed some of the events without embellishment or quote farming, you could probably shorten this to a few sections no longer than a couple paragraphs each. As opposed to five paragraphs about the "false allegations against Quinn and subsequent harassment", then another five paragraphs go on to explain not only extra people who were harassed, but people who weren't harassed (because some of the people not harassed are men, which PROVES "muh soggy knees"). Then we have three paragraphs about how the media doesn't like Gamergate. You could easily rename the header to "Online Harassment and Media Response" and probably shorten most of that to five paragraphs that just establish harassment and the response to it. Then we have eight paragraphs that briefly touch on some things Gamergate complains about, only to extensively rebuke them by quoting as many negative opinions on it as possible. Calling it all "conspiracy theories" and so forth. Reading through that section, I'm really not sure what any of you think Gamergate's motives are except "muh soggy knees". Eight paragraphs to that section, and it's still completely unclear why Gamergate has happened. You could shorten the ethics concerns down to like a paragraph, and we have a few sources discussing where some of Gamergate's anger likely stems from. In the GameJournoPros section we have a full paragraph dedicated to numerous perspectives on the mailing list, virtually none of which are substantial or important to the reader. That's only half way through the article. Need I go on, or do you think it's most prudent to continue in the fashion the article is going? This ideological tripe is nothing but frustration and doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. This is blog nonsense. It's not informative. YellowSandals (talk) 19:06, 14 November 2014 (UTC) My sole action on this discussion was to remove yet another dumb off-topic attempt to drag this article talk page, which is about Gamergate, back to a spurious attack on one of Gamergate's chosen victims. The poster provided no actionable problems, but did introduce severely problematic material. This material has been restored. It should be removed again and never restored. It is a gratuitous personal attack and has no place on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a forum. Wikipedia has a policy forbidding personal attacks on living people. --TS 01:12, 14 November 2014 (UTC) I don't see any stop at attacking Milo or Sommers reputations subtly. --DSA510 Pls No H8 04:07, 14 November 2014 (UTC) "It is a gratuitous personal attack". TS, that is subjective opinion of yours and I disagree with it. It is great that you have such opinions but please don't delete text of others. Please be objective. I'm not sure that the judgemental terminology is helpful. IMO unfortunately this talk page is now a chat forum because the article is crippled, the contributors deadlocked, and new contributors get a frosty reception (eg. Kurtis and TRPoD interaction above).Jgm74 (talk) 07:46, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Blizzard entertainment stance on Gamergate

Mike Morhaime full quote at BlizzCon is "Over the past couple of months, there has been a small group of people doing awful things,"They're tarnishing our reputation as gamers. It's not right.", therefore the claims that he especially denounced GamerGate are false and therefore be changed to mention that.(per Wikipedia:Synthesis) Avono (talk) 17:24, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

@Tarc: It was Geoff Keighley who asked at the Direct Tv stage if Gamergate was responsible,he did not return any clear answer Avono (talk) 17:53, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

He never specifically mentioned Gamergate so you would need a source that interprets it that way and we would note that as the opinion of that author. Assuming he is talking about Gamergate here is WP:OR. Muscat Hoe (talk) 17:30, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

for reference the specific request is to change "co-founder Mike Morhaime denounced GamerGate at BlizzCon 2014" to "co-founder Mike Morhaime denounced the ongoing harassment at BlizzCon 2014" Avono (talk) 20:42, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

The media has made the attribution to GG, so we do need to be careful. The current text is Blizzard Entertainment president and co-founder Mike Morhaime denounced GamerGate at BlizzCon 2014, saying that "a small group of people have been doing really awful things. They have been making some people's lives miserable, and they are tarnishing our reputation as gamers. It's not right." He called on attendees to oppose hate and harassment and to "be kind and respect one another., I would suggest Blizzard Entertainment president and co-founder Mike Morhaime denounced the ongoing harassment at BlizzCon 2014, saying that "a small group of people have been doing really awful things. They have been making some people's lives miserable, and they are tarnishing our reputation as gamers. It's not right." He called on attendees to oppose hate and harassment and to "be kind and respect one another. (change in bold) This does not name GG, keeps the implication in the sources (even if obvious), but still reflects properly on the quote. --MASEM (t) 17:30, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

The sources cited all say it was in reference to Gamergate. Morhaime himself confirmed he was speaking about Gamergate. As a final note, the DirecTV stage with Mike Morhaime as a guest confirms he was speaking out against GamerGate during the introductions of the opening ceremony. The group is mentioned by name. [8]. WP:SYN is not involved. — Strongjam (talk) 17:34, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

the specific faction was not named. --DSA510 Pls No H8 17:54, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

to be specific, he might be talking about it as a whole, harassment from both sides, as Gawker valiantly proclaims to be false, since 20k+ white males are doing it purely for "misogyny". wheras the media "RS" says that there is only harrasment coming from the pro-gamergate side. --DSA510 Pls No H8 17:58, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Postaddendumaddendum: The validity of that article is being disputed in the comments section. Someone get a copy of the actual event rather than some 3'd party's biased version. --DSA510 Pls No H8 18:04, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Doesn't matter. Comments on an article aren't RS. Also, even if we remove that source there's still MCV saying Mike Morhaime dedicated a part of his Blizzcon 2014 opening ceremony speech to slam GamerGaters and urge people to redouble their efforts in trying to promote a friendlier, more welcoming gaming environment.. — Strongjam (talk) 18:12, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

however that is Ben Parfitt's interpretation, no where in that source is it claimed that Morhaime mentioned GamerGate Avono (talk) 18:19, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

No, this request should be denied, as Morhaime was indeed speaking directly about Gamergaters. If we need to add the additional specificity from the joystiq link above, then that is fine. Tarc (talk) 17:43, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Prove that Morhaime was speaking directly about Gamergate (and I mean, use HIS words, not what others INTERPRET). Omegastar (talk) 17:57, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

We follow WP:RS here. Us proving anything would be WP:OR. — Strongjam (talk) 18:14, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

This is either a case of incorrect information (from joystiq), or an attempt at smearing (yet again). Wouldn't the actual conference/convention/powwow be a better source? --DSA510 Pls No H8 18:20, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

thus the joystiq claim cannot be used unless a secondary source is found that Independently states the same thing.Avono (talk) 18:22, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Then we can at least agree that Morhaime has only "denounced the ongoing harassment" and not anything specific. --Super Goku V (talk) 21:59, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

That is the aim of this request, to only state what was said by Morhaime without third party interpretations.Avono (talk) 22:05, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Consider this is in the section about the "Industry response" which is after the section outlining the established harassment towards Quinn/Sarkeesian/Wu, and the reports of harassment the other way. In context of his actual speech, and not the clarification afterwards, it makes sense to point out the "ongoing harassment" (per my suggestion above), which in no way weakens the importance of his statement at that venue. Even if he knew and stated later he was speaking to the harassment attributed to GG, saying "the ongoing harassment" is just as true a statement. --MASEM (t) 18:25, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I propose Masem suggestion to be used until the information from joystiq can be backed up Avono (talk) 18:30, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

It's very clear that he was referring to GamerGate, as per the sources covering the event. Oppose. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:32, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Does it matter if he was speaking to harassment under the GG banner, or harassment that has been going on in general? --MASEM (t) 18:41, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, actually it does, for reasons that should be intensely obvious at this point. Stop trying to create a two-sided issue where the reliable sources are all-but-unanimously on one side. This wasn't on the front page of The New York Times for no reason. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:36, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

There is a major difference if he was condemning the harassment, in general (which most everyone, including GG supporters, would likely agree with), and if he was condemning specifically the Gamergate movement, which add yet more weight to the article. The latter is a much more charged statement that we cannot say in a WP voice, and so we have to verify if this is truly what he said in the sources. If he actually said "GG" during the speech, I would not have an issue at all; it might add more imbalance but its impossible to get away from since we'd have it sourced as such. But the analysis below is clear that we're resting the validity of the statement (that he was talking about on the non-verbal nod to a question asked by Kingsley. That is a huge WP:SNYTH problem considering the change in POV of the statement and the balance of the article. --MASEM (t) 23:49, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

The cite sources have made the connection:

• BlizzCon’s opening ceremony started with a bang this morning, as Blizzard Entertainment president Mike Morhaime spent the first part of his speech denouncing GamerGate [9]
• Mike Morhaime dedicated a part of his Blizzcon 2014 opening ceremony speech to slam GamerGaters [10]
• Mike Morhaime as a guest confirms he was speaking out against GamerGate during the introductions of the opening ceremony. The group is mentioned by name. [11]

No WP:SYNTH is involved. — Strongjam (talk) 00:00, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes it is, if we are saying it in WP's voice; if we say that the speech was believed to be about Gamergaters by some sources, that would be fine but clunnky. But we cannot say he was talking about it when we can clearly tell from the direct primary sources that the only thing that connected his speech directly to the "condemning of Gamergaters" (and not to the harassment resulting from the situation) was a nod in reply to a question, and the question not being specific as to which part of his speech. --MASEM (t) 00:11, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

"if we say that the speech was believed to be about Gamergaters by some sources, that would be fine but clunnky." We don't know that though. The sources don't say they believe he meant Gamergaters based on the speech. They could have gotten clarification from Blizzard. In the end we have to trust WP:RS and not do our own research. — Strongjam (talk) 00:27, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Why can we just cite the speech in general and then in the next sentence state that it "was believed to be about Gamergaters by some sources?" --Super Goku V (talk) 00:37, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

We could, and that would at least avoid the OR, but then that also begs adding one more bit of weighted coverage to the article. There's zero issues with saying what he actually said in his speech (which, "last few months" make it clear its surrounding GG events, no SYNTH there) in a section called "Industry response" that follows from the harassment aspects. --MASEM (t) 00:48, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I've just about lost interest in the health of this article. From top to bottom it's a wash. However, I did want to point out that Blizzard's PR team constructed a pretty careful statement that condemned harassment without specifically implicating anyone. In fact, most figures that have come out of this with clean hands have been places that aren't attacking anyone, like Escapist Magazine who allowed discussion to continue on forums while they made certain nothing got out of hand. Twisting what a rep for Blizzard said about a movement - especially an ideologically heated controversy with people in it who don't care about other humans - is not only damaging to the reputation of that rep, but also to Blizzard itself. Any editor here looking to victimize people or groups they disagree with should take some serious reflection on their own morals. I know this advice falls on deaf ears. But do consider: Blizzard constructed their very neutral statement for a reason, and Wikipedia should not be going out of their way to twist that neutrality into a statement of support for one side or another of some vitriolic, misanthropic, attack-oriented ideology. YellowSandals (talk) 18:42, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Considering Gawker is a reliable source now, it seems the standards of Wikipedia are falling greatly. Thank god gawker doesn't talk about KDE/Ubuntu/FOSS (hopefully). --DSA510 Pls No H8 18:55, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Not sure what this has to do with this request. None of the sources for this statement are owned by Gawker Media. — Strongjam (talk) 19:01, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I am giving an example of the standards of wikipedia in recent light. --DSA510 Pls No H8 19:06, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

There has only been one group engaging in harassment and tarnishing the reputation of gaming over the past couple of months. Reliable sources are perfectly capable of checking with Blizzard to make sure Mike Morhaime meant what it sounded like, and conversely he could easily put out a press release explaining that he really meant the Jehovah's Witnesses or whatever. This is why we use reliable sources. --TS 18:58, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

No, that's not true. We have sources (one from Salon/Aurdbach) that says that the GG moderate are fishing out trolling using the GG hashtag to stir the pot, and there's the harassment by unknowns towards proGG supporters. So it's not proper to say the harassment is only coming from GG supporters; at best we can say it is primarily coming from those using the GG banner/hashtag. Now, whether Morhaime was aware of that or not, we can't be sure, but we can be certain he was talking about harassment in general (per his exact quote), and that's still fine to leave it at that for the "Industry response" section (Even the ESA's statement didn't mention GG by name but referred to harassment). --MASEM (t) 19:03, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Considering the definition of "Reliable Source" has been reduced to muckraking web tabloids run by supporters of bullying, Gawker Media, I'm not so sure the "Reliable Sources" should get the free reign they once had, I.E. everything should be verified thoroughly. --DSA510 Pls No H8 19:06, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Come off it, Masem. The vast majority of reliable sources discuss the threats as coming from Gamergate supporters essentially exclusively. We're aware of Auerbach's POV at this point and his viewpoint is interesting, but it is not the predominant one in reliable sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:33, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I still fail to see how gawker is reliable for anything. --DSA510 Pls No H8 21:50, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

You're wilfully ignoring information I've provided in the past. You can look through the archives for sources on harassment of Gamergate supporters. Here's the newest one, which I've linked to before, which is still not in the article, I'll note.

Oh, here's an SJW endorsing the gas chamber for Gamergate supporters, among other lunacy. Social justice is great! Willhesucceed (talk) 20:20, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

@Willhesucceed: can you please stay focused on reliable sources and article content? Thanks-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:41, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I am. It's allowable for his opinion, and Digitimes is perfectly reliable. Willhesucceed (talk) 21:16, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Get out of the brambles of the debate for a second. There are two groups slandering gaming right now and they're both extremist elements. There are the people trying to publicize the sexual fetishes of Gamergate supporters in the hopes that it will smear them. There are people sending threats, syringes, or whatever to Gamergate supporters. Then we've got people sending threats and airing out the sexual history of the Social Justice set on the other end. The Social Justice has declared all "gamers" dead, and they call gaming misogynistic. Meanwhile, other people are sending death threats, presumably in support of "gamers". All the while we've these political figures stepping in, and they have nothing to do with gaming. Now you tell me - who's tarnishing gaming? The people saying it's dead? The people harassing others for gaming? The people saying that gamers are misogynistic?

You see how Blizzards statement can go any direction. They condemned the harassment. It's a careful PR statement, and you are supposed to be able to interpret it either way. Nobody supports the harassment. Nobody in their right minds anyway. That's what Blizzard came out against. If they wanted to condemn Gamergate directly, that's what they would have done, but apparently they don't want to bait additional controversy, and Wikipedia should not be doing it for them. Do not spend so much energy attacking people that you bring misery and harassment to people who want to focus on the specific problems and not on a group with people they've never met or spoken to. YellowSandals (talk) 19:13, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Yellow Sandals puts it the best. --DSA510 Pls No H8 19:29, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Shorter YellowSandels: “Both sides have always been at war with EastAsia.” I’ve seen no credible evidence that Sarkesian, Quinn, Wu, or their supporters have threatened to murder or rape anyone, only that some interested parties claim to have received anonymous parcels. There is no question at all that Quinn was smeared, Sarkisian threatened with murder, and Wu threatened with both murder, rape, and assault; a police investigation into the latter is ongoing. MarkBernstein (talk) 19:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh, knock it off. This very Wikipedia article has been a party to the harassment and you know it. It has struggled with numerous BLP violations, including but not limited to criticizing whether or not it's appropriate for certain forum moderators to like BDSM. The article begins with a derogatory conclusion about people, and then spends its duration trying to prove the conclusion. Innocence is not granted by the virtue of rhetoric when the actions speak for themselves. This much is apparent, and something consistently reiterated by several editors here who are on the war path. Many editors are here to attack and hurt people, and they are as wrong as anyone who has set out to attack and hurt people in this controversy. YellowSandals (talk) 19:47, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Is the post by YellowSandals immediately above fully consistent with the General Sanctions in place on this topic? MarkBernstein (talk) 19:59, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

we have Wikipedia:General sanctions/Gamergate/Requests for enforcement to discuss editor conduct and sanctions, which is probably where both YS's and MB's comments belong.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:04, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

To be fair, MB instigated it. --DSA510 Pls No H8 20:31, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

If you have a user conduct issue, take it to the appropriate boards - DO NOT USE THIS PAGE TO WHINE OR CAST ASPERSIONS. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:18, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

You're really being quite nasty over very little, chill out man there's no need for that. HalfHat 21:54, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

• Quote what Morhaime actually said, and then note that it was interpreted as targeting Gamergate by Geoff Keighley et al. We've already gotten in trouble for mangling sources above, let's not do it again. - hahnchen 19:43, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

• • It's not "mangling sources" to note, as several sources do, that Morhaime confirmed it with a non-verbal, but obvious, gesture in that interview. If Blizzard puts out a statement saying they weren't talking about Gamergate, we can fix it. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:46, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
    • Waiting for someone to complain is a poor way of writing an article, it's pretty much what I said not to do. I don't doubt that he was talking about Gamergate, but there are plenty of sources (such as the gamergate-maligned Kotaku & Polygon) who note that Morhaime did not mention Gamergate explicitly. So it is an interpretation, even if widely held. - hahnchen 20:21, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
      • Apples and oranges, Hahnchen. The issue re: Auerbach was a misinterpretation of a source in paraphrase. Here, we cite multiple reliable sources reaching a conclusion based on their observations. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:44, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
        • I've said quote Morhaime, and then explicitly cite those conclusions. Do you have a problem with that? - hahnchen 22:11, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
          • No, I don't. Sounds fine, thanks. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:00, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
    • That's original research. Willhesucceed (talk) 20:23, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
      • I don't think you understand what "original research" is. It is not "original research" to cite reliable sources which synthesize a conclusion. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:39, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
        • Are Gawker links still being called "Reliable"? --DSA510 Pls No H8 20:44, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

WP:RSN is a better place for that question. Also noted earlier Gawker is not involved in this issue section, I see no Gawker sites being cited for this claim. — Strongjam (talk) 20:48, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Gawker is shorthand for Kotaku since Kotaku is a part of the Gawker network. Anyways, couldn't we just quote the section that is relevant instead of putting it on one side or the other? --Super Goku V (talk) 22:28, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Before I go on, I’d like to take a moment to talk about something serious. Over the past couple of months, there’s been a small group of people who have been doing really awful things. They have been making some people’s lives miserable and they are tarnishing our reputation as gamers. It’s not right. Blizzcon is a great example of how positive and uplifting gaming can be. Let’s carry the good vibes from this weekend out into the world all year round. There is another person on the other end of a chat screen, they are our friends, our brothers and sisters, our sons and daughters. Let’s take a stand to reject hate and harassment, and let’s redouble our efforts to be kind and respectful to one another and let’s remind the world what the gaming community is really all about.

— CEO of Blizzard, Mike Morhaime

Why is this still being discussed? Morhaime made a statement condemning Gamergaters, later confirmed that it was the Gamergaters he was condemning, and this s who all reliable sources describe the matter. This is not even a point of contention. Tarc (talk) 21:15, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Because RS isn't so R. Skepticism is not a sin. --DSA510 Pls No H8 21:39, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Didn't he clarify that he was indeed talking about Gamergate and all of this is just complaining that his original statement did not explicitly refer to Gamergate and therefore his clarification should not be used to corroborate his original statement out of some major form of pedantry?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:54, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I think there's some controversy about whether he confirmed or not. The Joystiq report says he did, some internet commentators say that he didn't. Until we have a WP:RS that says otherwise I see no reason to call the Joystiq report inaccurate. — Strongjam (talk) 21:57, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

UNTIL there is either confirmation buy MULTIPLE sources (reliable as in the general definition, not Gawker) that, yes, he said that, I don't think it should be used. Similar should go to all the citations on the page. --DSA510 Pls No H8 22:04, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

"11:52AM As a final note, the DirecTV stage with Mike Morhaime as a guest confirms he was speaking out against GamerGate during the introductions of the opening ceremony. The group is mentioned by name.' is the end of the story. Tarc (talk) 22:09, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

It's well sourced. All of these are WP:RS and non-Gawker as requested:

• BlizzCon’s opening ceremony started with a bang this morning, as Blizzard Entertainment president Mike Morhaime spent the first part of his speech denouncing GamerGate [12]
• Mike Morhaime dedicated a part of his Blizzcon 2014 opening ceremony speech to slam GamerGaters [13]
• Mike Morhaime as a guest confirms he was speaking out against GamerGate during the introductions of the opening ceremony. The group is mentioned by name. [14]

— Strongjam (talk) 22:17, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I've just seen the clips. He doesn't stop or correct Keighley (because I think he's correct), but he doesn't confirm it either. Even the sources that Gamergate hates (Kotaku & Polygon) do not explicitly say (as Wikipedia currently does) that Morhaime denounced Gamergate. - hahnchen 22:25, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Then you would have seen the, how shall we put it, respectful nod and smile from Morhaime at Keighley's statement. Non-verbal communication is a thing, and we helpfully have a number of reliable sources making the connection so that it is not WP:SYNTH in any way, shape or form. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:28, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

People nod in everyday conversation. We have a number of reliable sources that state Morhaime did not address Gamergate by name, so any connection is an interpretation. Nothing wrong with stating that. - hahnchen 22:44, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, since I have not seen the video cited, here is a recording of it at the least. At ten seconds in, we can first see the panel with Morhaime at Keighley. At twenty, Keighley is almost done with the intro to the panel as Morhaime is grinning/smiling. At twenty-nine seconds in, Keighley uses the word "Gamergate" in his speech. By thirty-three seconds in, Morhaime facial expression becomes closer to neutral, though not a Blank expression. At thirty-five, Morhaime is nodding as Keighley has mentioned Morhaime being "one of the first execs in the Gaming Industry to address that head on. At thirty-eight, the camera shot changes from a distance shot to Morhaime head-on. The discussion continues on to a different subject and at fifty-one second, Morhaime first speaks. Is that enough to make or break a connection? --Super Goku V (talk) 22:51, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

First one is assuming that he was talking about one side or the other. Second one has the same fallacy. Joystiq's one is still unconfirmed. Again, there is no proof he was talking about one side in particular, but rather condemning all harassment, from both sides... or whatever number of sides there is now. --DSA510 Pls No H8 22:31, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

The only notable harassment...harassment characterized as misogynists, to boot...has come by gamergaters against women in the gaming culture, as evidenced by the reliable sources in the article. The smattering of blowback is I believe documented in the article as well (would have to review), but it is isolated and minor...again, as evidenced by reliable sources. As the Blizzard speech has been characterized and interpreted by reliable sources as targeting Gamergaters specifically, that is what this article should follow. At any rate, this is certainly not something that would ever been changed/edited through full protection by an admin, sao it is best to let this edit request drop, as it simply isn't going to happen. Tarc (talk) 22:54, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

It's only because your No True Scotsman BS. --DSA510 Pls No H8 04:01, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

So the fact that he called out a small element of the gaming community, and then praised the gaming community as a whole, you're going to cherry pick that and say he call out out gamers? Really? Come one. It stands the opening sentence on it's head. --DHeyward (talk) 23:02, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

He didn't "call out gamers," he called out GamerGate, which is by any measure, a tiny minority of the gaming community as a whole. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:04, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

20K+ doesn't seem small. --DSA510 Pls No H8 04:01, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. Hayward, I specifically said "Gamergaters", not "gamers" in a general sense. Tarc (talk) 23:20, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

"Those that did the notable harassment" are not all "Gamergaters" (specifically, those that support Gamergate as an ethics bit), it is only by people using the #gamergate tag, which there is RS-sourcable evidence that are trolls out there that are subverting things. This is not to say "no" Gamergater is innocent of being involved in the harassment, but that not all harassers are Gamergaters. --MASEM (t) 23:34, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

You specifically said "Gamergaters" while Morhaime did not. Can't we just say that he said to "reject hate and harassment" and state that publications took the statement as him calling out Gamergate? --Super Goku V (talk) 23:38, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that the harassment is from a small group using the #gamergate tag out of a larger #gamergate group. #gamergate itself is a small groupr of gamers. Our article is not so finely tuned to identify the difference and the ignorance of that is the articles opening sentence where misogyny, harassment and gamers are all blended under a single, evil umbrella. If the article was accurate, it would be very clear exactly who this quote is directed at and it is not the Blizzard execs belief that "misogyny and harassment in video game culture" is widely held or believed. --DHeyward (talk) 02:44, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

But le ebin No True Scotsman maymay, which seems to not apply to anti-gamergate, despite someone like myself being able to make 5 twitter accounts and then dox pro-gg under the anti-gg banner, says that everyone who is pro-gamergate is a misogynist. Or something. --DSA510 Pls No H8 04:01, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

And how does this relate to article content? Or are you just WP:FORUM? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:28, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

If the quote is significant enough to include, we should reflect its tone and content as accurately as possible. "Denounced harassment" is a better characterization than "denounced Gamergate", so why worry if we can find sources to support the latter?--Trystan (talk) 00:49, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Well said. We get more accuracy by including the original comment here. starship.paint ~ regal 01:30, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

The reliable sources all say the Gamergate thugs are the target. Why is this supposed to be controversial? If nearly every press outlet got the facts wrong, couldn't he just tell them all off with a single press release? No, obviously in the middle of Gamergate he was obviously referring to Gamergate (and not some add yet unnoticed episode of intimidation involving gaming Quakers). So yeah, no wriggle room. Drop the stick and step away from the corpse. --TS 01:22, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

@Tony Sidaway:Was that directed at me? Because that was my second contribution to this talk page, and the first on this topic. I wouldn't contest that he was referring to Gamergate, only that "condemning harassment" is more reflective of the statement that he chose to make.--Trystan (talk) 01:39, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I have set |answered=yes in the edit request. There is obviously not consensus here for this edit, so using an edit protected request template was premature, and even if people here agreed to do so we are obviously not going to make an edit that contradicts what all the reliable sources say about this. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:31, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Then, why can't we just state what he said with a citation? Masem has suggested that we could make a new section called "Industry response" in response to one of my earlier suggestion. --Super Goku V (talk) 01:56, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

The RS here are all gaming outlets for the most part (I can't find a mainstream source), so they are going to have more bias here because for the most part, no RS gaming source has any reason to give GG the time of day (understandably, since GG is attacking their integrity). Take sources that are less biased by their nature like CNet Venture Beat or the Verge and they all clearly establish he's talking about GamerGate, but not accusing Gamergaters. This is a core thing for us as neutral WP editors to recognize when there is a natural bias in the press that we can verify. --MASEM (t) 01:36, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

From Masem's Verge link above: Blizzard CEO says harassment is tarnishing gaming's reputation ... Morhaime didn't condemn Gamergate or its members, but he's clearly talking about problems that have been going on since the movement gained steam over two months ago. Reliable source, hmm? starship.paint ~ regal 01:45, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Was he or was he not spoken to later and did he or did he not say he was explicitly talking about Gamergate?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:54, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

He was spoken to later and he did not explicitly state that he was talking about Gamergate. If you are refering to the Keighley issue, I have already asked my question above. --Super Goku V (talk) 02:04, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I can't believe I still have to say this. Drop the stick. --TS 02:35, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• Just quote Morhaime, say his words were largely interpreted as referring to Gamergate. This is what most sources say anyway. I don't see how this is even contentious. - hahnchen 02:56, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Works for me. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:02, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. We're just saying the same things over and over. We need to get back to the idea above of article pruning mentioned above, the idea of replacing existing and possibly weak gamer industry sources with stronger ones, as long as the underlying point isn't altered. Tarc (talk) 02:58, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I would write "Some assume he was referring to GamerGate, though it is not known whether it is GamerGate as a whole, or one side or the other." That way, everybody wins/loses. --DSA510 Pls No H8 04:01, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

That would be incorrect; as reliable sources have characterized it as referring to Gamergaters, our article will reflect that. My last statement on this tangent. Tarc (talk) 04:05, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

There are alternative ways to render it, but I will take my point below. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:49, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Proposed rewording

At BlizzCon 2014, Blizzard Entertainment president and co-founder Mike Morhaime said that "a small group of people have been doing really awful things. They have been making some people's lives miserable, and they are tarnishing our reputation as gamers. It's not right." He called on attendees to oppose hate and harassment and to "be kind and respect one another". His statements have been largely interpreted in the media as referring to GamerGate. starship.paint ~ regal 04:32, 14 November 2014 (UTC) tagging people advocating for change... Hahnchen, NorthBySouthBaranof, Muscat Hoe, Avono, Masem, Super Goku V, DungeonSiegeAddict510, Trystan ... sorry if I missed you

Looks good to me, although I'd tweak the last line to add some attribution, "His statements have been widely interpreted in the media as referring to GamerGate." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:48, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

That's even better, yes. starship.paint ~ regal 04:53, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Fair, but keep it that way. --DSA510 Pls No H8 05:19, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

The notification system forgot to message me it seems. In any case, I would agree that this is better. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:49, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I would be comfortable with that as-well Avono (talk) 10:24, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

"A referral", I believe, is the translation of a legal case to a different court. The word we want if "a reference to GamerGate" MarkBernstein (talk) 12:21, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Referring would be better which is what was suggested in the first place.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 12:46, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I think we could (and should) stop using the phrase "in the media", as if it were some entity with an opinion. Here and in many other statements related to the topic of this article we can just say, for instance, "widely interpreted". Remember that, in an article like this at its current status, all of our facts come directly from media reports, so referring to the media as a third party is tiresome and unnecessary. We shouldn't make the media the topic of the entire article like this. --TS 12:54, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

You're right. The whole point of this is that the movement itself won't acknowledge that he was talking about them when everyone else is going "yep, he means Gamergate".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 12:57, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Disagree with TS. The (gaming) media is an involved party in this situation, therefore it's important to mention them. In fact, all four of the sources we cite for the BlizzCon stuff have to do with gaming or at worst, computer technology. In addition, I believe that other reliable sources like papers will turn up in the future. "At least one paper written about Gamergate is already undergoing the peer review process... And Ryulong... you can't speak for everyone. starship.paint ~ regal 13:55, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Alter the last line to simply "His statements have been widely interpreted in the media as referring to GamerGate". Tarc (talk) 13:42, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Done. starship.paint ~ regal 13:55, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I meant to chop off "in the media" per TS's suggestion above, but was distracted. We already know we're talking about the media. Tarc (talk) 14:09, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I have to admit your original wording was rather confusing!

I think starship is getting a bit too deeply into an "us versus them" situation. If we didn't think we could trust the press we wouldn't write the article because we'd have no reliable sources. My comment is applicable throughout the article, not just here. We should stop talking about our sources as if they were active entities involved in some dispute, except where this is the case. And if they are involved, we should not really be using them as a source except for recording their opinion. In this case, though, we've got near unanimous interpretation by sources known to check their facts.

Furious attempts are being made, by actual involved parties, to spin this away from Morhaime's actual target and pretend he was talking about, I don't know, maybe the Trilateral Commission or something. We oughtn't to stand for that kind of nonsense. We report according to the reliable sources, and those sources are clear that he was talking about Gamergate. --TS 14:41, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Not opposed to this, but I think we can do without all the quoting. The article is already a WP:QUOTEFARM and has length issues. I'd suggest something like this instead.

• At BlizzCon 2014, Blizzard Entertainment president and co-founder Mike Morhaime denounced recent harassment from a small group. He called on attendees to oppose hate and harassment and to "be kind and respect one another". His statements have been widely interpreted as referring to GamerGate. — Strongjam (talk) 14:43, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Suits me. --TS 14:51, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I would change the last bit to "referring to fallout from GamerGate." --DHeyward (talk) 18:42, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I oppose that, as per the reliable sources. "But this year, in the first few minutes of his time on stage, Morhaime wanted to address GamerGate..." "Blizzard Entertainment president Mike Morhaime spent the first part of his speech denouncing GamerGate" "Mike Morhaime dedicated a part of his Blizzcon 2014 opening ceremony speech to slam GamerGaters" "Blizzard CEO Mike Morhaime addressed GamerGate" etc. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:39, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. I haven't seen any RS say it was about the fallout, just that either it was about Gamergate or assumed to be about Gamergate. — Strongjam (talk) 19:47, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Per reliable sources, the relationship to gamergate is pure SYNTH. [15]. "He didn't identify it as the Gamergate saga and everything that has happened around it, but come on: we all know what he was talking about, right?". Gamergate should not identified as what he denounced since he didn't denounce it. He denounced harassment. --DHeyward (talk) 21:24, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

SYNTH prohibits only original research by synthesis — that is, conclusions not reached by reliable sources. SYNTH is expressly permitted when it is the conclusion of multiple reliable sources, as it is here. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:41, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Then we can use that quote from kotaku to highlight that he didn't identify Gamergate and that the "wide interpretation" is pure speculation by the media. Or we can carve out what is much more widely accepted is that he condemned harassment that escalated during gamergate. There are many reliable sources that that quote him without tying it to gamergate and it's not like he couldn't have said "gamergate" if he meant "gamergate." Nor do I think he was saying harassment before gamergate was okay. It's myopic and self-serving to tie it so closely to gamergate when it's readily apparent that he didn't do anything of the sort. --DHeyward (talk) 22:08, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Also, he defends the gaming community "Let's redouble our efforts to be kind and respectful to one another. And let's remind the world what the gaming community is really all about.". That separates the gaming community from the harassers much more than the WP article does. --DHeyward (talk) 21:28, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

The proposed change only states that it was interpreted to be about Gamergate, which is exactly what the sources state, so I don't see the WP:SYNTH problem. Not sure why you're concerned about painting with a broad brush, the proposed change says harassment from a small group. — Strongjam (talk) 21:34, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Sure, fair point. At BlizzCon 2014, Blizzard Entertainment president and co-founder Mike Morhaime denounced recent harassment issues in the industry, blaming "a small group of people [who] have been doing really awful things" and "tarnishing our reputation" as gamers. He called on attendees to treat each other with kindness and demonstrate to the world that the community rejects harassment. His statements have been widely interpreted as referring to GamerGate. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:41, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Fine with me. I've added to the draft page with small tweak. I dropped issues in the industry. Seemed unnecessary to me. Also, style question, should we be more consistent on how we capitalize GamerGate? Article title is Gamergate, but we usually spell it GamerGate. — Strongjam (talk) 21:47, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Intel returns to Gamasutra, now with a source

The Mary Sue ain't The New York Times, but it's a (weak) RS, as previously discussed and used on this page, and we ought to update our section on Intel pulling ads with a notation that they began a new campaign on Gamasutra in November 2014. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:43, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Gamasutra confirmed it via a tweet, for what it's worth. Jgm74 (talk) 07:24, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I can't help noticing that the article's coverage of the Intel incident is rather larger than I expected. It seems larger than is reasonable, to be honest. I'd expect two or three sentences ending "Intel apologised for giving the perception of taking sides, also renewing its commitment to diversity, and later ran other paid advertising campaigns on Gamasutra."

We probably don't need a blow-by-blow commentary of what various chatterboxes had to say about it. The opinions of Johnson, McCormick, Kain etc aren't needed here. This was a straightforward letter-writing campaign that had a temporary effect. Let's try to stop using this article as a gazetteer of pundits. --TS 13:17, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Agreed — especially given the relatively-short duration, I think we can, in hindsight, view a lot of that as recentism. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 13:32, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I think we should drop everything after ... The New York Times believed it was in response to this campaign, specifically on the aforementioned article by Alexander. And add a sentence saying that in November 2014 Intel started a new paid campaign on Gamasutra citing The Mary Sue link above. The last paragraph I think can just be cut. — Strongjam (talk) 16:08, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

It is not a renewed campaign, a bit of f12ing would show that. --DSA510 Pls No H8 15:49, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

A look at the article would say it is a paid campaign. Not sure how looking at the HTML source would prove otherwise, or how we could work that into the article without violating WP:OR. — Strongjam (talk) 16:08, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure of the specific term, but its not a campaign on GS, per se, but on AdSense. I'm not sure how to word this, but they aren't specifically going for GS, if you can understand what I'm trying to say. --DSA510 Pls No H8 16:23, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

The article and the primary source, Gamasutra's twitter, say it's paid campaign. I'm not getting any Intel ad's when I view the site (getting targeted AdSense ads for AWS). It's possible there is a paid ad campaign and users are also seeing targeted advertisements through AdSense. — Strongjam (talk) 16:36, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Especially since Google added an option to deliver direct campaigns through AdSense back in January. - MrOllie (talk) 16:38, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

We don't want to be playing guessing games with HTML code. Intel is back on Gamasutra. I've updated the draft and took the opportunity to trim the quote farm while I was at it. Someone else would have to fix the orphaned references, as my little tablet interface isn't up to it. Go and see what you think. --TS 16:33, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Looks good to me. I took a crack at fixing the references. There's still an error about 'bbc_coundrey' but I must be blind because I can't see it in the source. Found it. — Strongjam (talk) 16:43, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm still not happy with the size of the thing, most of which is redundant quotations of multiple pundits. We're spending lots of space promoting the opinions of these professional chatterboxes when a brief summary of events would do. I'd say we overplay the opinionators because we're struggling to explain the vehemence of the response to a few articles critical of the consumer aspect of gamer culture and the violence and misogyny that regularly attend its manifestations.

We need to cover the following: conspiracy mongering about the timing and provenance of "Gamers are Over" and related articles; widespread ignorance of their actual content and the terrifying and violent context in which they appeared and about which they were written; criticism of the articles as "turning against" gamers; the letter writing campaign; responses by advertisers; responses in the advertising industry and business press.

If I've missed anything, please comment. When we've got a structure I think we'll be ready to tame that quote farm further. --TS 17:16, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Telegraph reporting on this now, so a better source. But agree we can cut down that section a bit, perhaps work both "advertizing target" campaigns together. --MASEM (t) 17:44, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

That source also mentions the debate about AdSense as well and gets clarification from Intel. So that looks like a settled issue now. — Strongjam (talk) 17:48, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I was just about to post this! Masem, I'm open to suggestions (out just go ahead and edit as I did). In not sure my proposed framework is feasible, as a lot of the Gamergate rationale is too far under the radar to get reported. News reporters understand the news cycle and don't take accusations of collusion seriously where it clearly doesn't exist. This, alongside GameJournoPros, forms a lot of Gamergate's internal credo or creation myth, but it probably isn't as widely reported as the latter. I'm still working on good, strong sources for this, because without understanding this conspiracy theory about a press that attacked gamers out of the blue it's rather difficult to work out quite why Gamergate activism took the form that it did. -TS 17:59, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

My suggestion would be along the lines (this is a very broad stroke, there can be a few quotes injected and the like,) of "GG supporters were critical of articles that spoke of the "death of the gamer identity" such as Leigh Alexander's piece from Gamasutra. They were also taken back by comments made by Sam Biddle of the Gawker networks that called for bullying of nerds in light of the harassment. In response, the GG supporters organized separate email campaigns to target advertizers that were promoted on these sites to express their concerns as part of a "consumer revolt". "Operation Disrespectful Nod" was aimed at sites like Gamasutra that discussed the end of the gamer identity. Some advertizers did pull their ads, leading some journalists to claim their there getting involved in a larger situation without understanding the full extent. In one case, Intel did pull their ads from Gamasutra but later reinstated them, stating that they had not planned on taking a position in the larger controversy. In "Operation Baby Seal", GG supporters turned to Google and Amazon's ad services which Gawker Media cites had used to point out violations on various Gawker sites against these service's AUP/TOS. The tactic of targetting the ad providers than the advertizers themselves was considered "a whole other scale" and has the potential, if successful, to financially harm Gawker." Much of the quotes given in that otherwise are excessive or just too much detail. --MASEM (t) 18:17, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

That reads okay to me and I love its brevity. Be bold! One thing I'd suggest adding is a brief reference to the Advertising Age report, which is more than just a chatterbox piece. --TS 19:23, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

It'll have to be a off-page draft (The article's fully locked down and while I can edit it as admin, that would be a major "involved" conflict.) --MASEM (t) 19:29, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Based on Masem's bit, but for clarity, just want to focus on the Intel issue now rather than try and get everything in one go. I agree with the overall thrust of tightening this section a lot, though.

Gamergate supporters were critical of articles that spoke of the "death of the gamer identity" such as Leigh Alexander's piece in Gamasutra. In response, supporters organized "Operation Disrespectful Nod," an e-mail campaign to advertisers demanding that they drop several involved publications. After receiving complaints from Gamergate supporters, Intel withdrew an ad campaign from Gamasutra in October. Intel's decision was widely criticized as an endorsement of the movement, leading to a corporate statement which apologized for appearing to take sides in the controversy. In mid-November, Intel began advertising on Gamasutra again, and said the site's readership was an important market for the company. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:02, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Seems generally fine. I'd like to see if we can cut the Gawker/Op Baby Seal section similarly to a para so that these two (both about targetting advertizing) can be treated in the same section. The DiGRA stuff is a different aspect and does need a separate section. --MASEM (t) 20:27, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:29, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

We should make it clear that Gamasutra's target audience is game developers, not gamers. This should have been clear from the wording of Leigh Alexander's widely misread "'Gamers' are over" article. --TS 22:20, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

While the intent is clear from the article and the fact Gamasutra is a site for devs + publishers and less for gamers, I do believe we can also source the fact the specific article was geared towards the devs/pubs. I just can't locate which source(s) were clear on that point. --MASEM (t) 02:56, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Just to clarify, Be bold with the working draft at Draft:Gamergate controversy. The sooner we get a trimmed account in there the sooner we can tweak it. Sometimes too much discussion makes us forget that the aim is to edit the article. --TS 21:10, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Instead of working on a draft with very little visibility, I recommend just pushing for unprotection so the article can be edited in the open. Not happy with the drive by full-protection when we already have sanctions in place. - hahnchen 03:30, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

As soon as there is anything that has widespread support an edit request will get it "visible". (and really, "drive by full protection" ??) -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:50, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Proposed edits to this article do not enjoy widespread support. The only thing full protection has ever done in this article is to stop improvement. Would rather admins started actually blocking people instead of punishing everyone, readers included. - hahnchen 03:59, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

@Hahnchen: I am confused as to why you think that if there is no ability to gain wide consensus via working on a draft article that there will be any chance of gaining consensus on the live article. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:21, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

the telegraph has covered it now [16] -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:37, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, we've got that one noted above, we're using that to trim down the section based on Intel's updated statement since it was a return to the status quo after all said and done. --MASEM (t) 16:26, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Techraptor reporting on this article and the talk page

Not a serious editing proposal; material not suitable for Wikipedia. WP:FORUM
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I'm not familiar with this periodical myself, but the recent issues with this article have been reported on in the media. http://techraptor.net/content/wikipedia-article-concerning-gamergate-controversy-battles-controversy YellowSandals (talk) 22:02, 14 November 2014 (UTC) Techraptor is not "the media" and it is certainly not a reliable source. There is no reason to codify Georgina Young's repetition of 8chan and KotakuInAction's ad hominem attacks on me, where they pulled WT:LANG#Mass deletion of language articles by Ryulong (where Nanshu was being hyperbolic). Georgina Young is also heavily biased in her stance on Gamergate, no matter how many times she told the host of HuffPoLive she was "neutral".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:09, 14 November 2014 (UTC) If the editorial staff at that website think sending letters of condolence to three victims of horrific harassment is some kind of indictment, I don't think we can trust their judgement on other matters. As this discussion cannot lead to any improvement of the article content and is likely to become an attractive nuisance, I propose that we archive it. --TS 22:26, 14 November 2014 (UTC) It's not our place to make moral judgements here. HalfHat 23:06, 14 November 2014 (UTC) It's not a moral judgement, but more properly a matter of poor judgement. We're certainly not supposed to adopt an amoral or moral relativist stance in editing; Wikipedia would be a horrible read if we did so, and the BLP could not exist. My proposal, however, is based on the fact that this section contains no actionable editing proposal. Were certainly never putting this trash into the article. --TS 23:16, 14 November 2014 (UTC) Agreed. Nothing actionable here, and I have BLP concerns. BLP applies to our editors and this article isn't exactly kind to Tarc or Ryulong. — Strongjam (talk) 23:20, 14 November 2014 (UTC) If sources were excluded for showing bias you'd have to cull may of the current references. Many have argued on this page for the inclusion of articles that show bias, why would that be an issue now? Jgm74 (talk) 23:22, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Proposal: Remove "GamerGate is dead" sources

No reliable sources, no serious content proposal, WP:NOTFORUM

According to "RS", GamerGate has died, what, 20 times? 30? [17] Topsy Graph. The trend is, gg slows down on weekends, then picks right back up. The "GG iz ded XD" stuff from, not surprisingly The Verge (Hi Vox Media!), is easily proven false. --DSA510 Pls No H8 19:47, 15 November 2014 (UTC) Can you be more specific? Do you want all articles from Vox removed or is there a particular article you think shouldn't be used? — Strongjam (talk) 19:48, 15 November 2014 (UTC) It's far too soon to have it factually called dead (stories still come), so its opinion pieces on that, and thus we should avoid including them if they are being used to call the controversy over (if they source other things, that's fine). --MASEM (t) 19:53, 15 November 2014 (UTC) We don't remove reliable sources because you disagree with their conclusions. As per the source you refer to, it does not argue that the movement is dead, rather it argues that its attempt to shield itself with "journalism ethics" is dead. Gamergate is now a stew of tautological arguments, powerless hashtags, and bruised egos. I suspect the banner and the members that rally beneath it will hold together. ... But the movement's agenda, or more clearly, the noble cover meant to conceal the movement's true agenda, is dead. Given the movement's failure to do anything meaningful in several weeks (coupled with the return of Intel to Gamasutra, undoing its one major "victory"), I hardly think pointing at a graph of Twitter activity constitutes "proof" in the manner you describe. Yes, lots of people are still tweeting about Gamergate. But they're not apparently achieving anything. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:55, 15 November 2014 (UTC) That's a bogus argument given that we're aware of this <redacted> which was posted recently - yes, no RS has yet picked up on it (and I dunno if they will, given their stance) but that is address "what are your ethical concerns, GG supporters?" - and most of those we can corroborate with other sources as being actual concerns (eg Doritosgate, Gerstmann's outster, Metacritic scores, etc.). What you cite is clearly an opinion. --MASEM (t) 19:58, 15 November 2014 (UTC) No, we can't use it. It's an anonymous post on an anonymous site which makes frankly vile attacks and is a fount of unsupported allegations about living people. We are not touching anything there with a ten-foot pole and I am redacting the link per BLP. You should know better, Masem. When and if that site becomes an issue reported on by significant reliable sources, we can address it then. But you and I both know that's not going to happen. You realize that the movement began with misogynistic attacks on Zoe Quinn, right Masem? You're carrying water for them again — retroactively citing Jeff Gerstmann and Doritosgate as justification for a vile and vicious harassment campaign that never mentioned any such thing until it wanted to cover its tracks is such a bloody obvious move it's kicking you in the face. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:00, 15 November 2014 (UTC) (ec on first point) I know we can't use it, until RS pick up on it (at which point it can be a usable primary source). But the point that "oh GG hasn't done anything to support their ethics claims, what started the whole mess" is refuted by the existance of that. Just because RS doesn't pick up on it doesn't mean it's not happening, and we have to be aware of all these ongoings and not just blind ourselves only to what the RSes are saying - we can only cite and quote RS but we have to be aware if the RS are skewing the situation from what is obviously different from reality. I disagree it is a BLP issue (they make claims that fall outside of BLP, none more harsh than some of the existing claims in the article), but I'm not going to revert that; however, if RSes do start to cite it, its use here will have to become a discussion point. --MASEM (t) 20:10, 15 November 2014 (UTC) Yeah, I eagerly await its in-depth discussion by major mainstream media. Hold your breath at your own risk. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:21, 15 November 2014 (UTC) You realize that the movement began with misogynistic attacks on Zoe Quinn. That is not factually proven true. We have no good timeline of events at the start; we know Gjoni put out his post, we know others jumped on that to raise ethics issues, and as close to simultaneously, there was the harassment at Quinn. But we have zero factual evidence to connect that the harassment was specifically tied to the "claims" of ethics - no clue if it were the same people, etc. etc.. (And this is ignoring the back-and-forth over the 4chan logs that Quinn claims to have and 4channers have denied because that's heresy evidence for all purposes). Could the ethics issues have been a "oh shit, we need to CYA with this harassment" action? Possibly. Alternatively, some people could have seen the ethics claims at Quinn and jumped at the chance to harass her. There is no clear timeline beyond the two events happening close enough in time to call them simultaneous events. So no, we absolutely not edit like the GG movement started with the attacks on Quinn. The harassment is what brought attention to it (and could be said to be the start of the GG controversy but not the start of the movement), and created the Streisand effect that probably brought more people to the proGG side, and more attention from the press. We have to be very clear on wording here to avoid imply anything that is not a clear fact in this situation. Also, the reason the GG dossier brings up Doritosgate and Gerstmann is part of the long chain of ethical concerns that have lead to consumer dissasification in the industry, so these are legit beefs if one is talking ethcis. --MASEM (t) 20:17, 15 November 2014 (UTC) The Gamergate movement demonstrably did begin with the attacks on Quinn. Yes, it is factually proven true, and that doesn't actually matter because literally every reliable source says it, which means we say it. We absolutely will edit this article in that vein. No reliable source has even begun to suggest that those two prior events had anything to do with a "movement" that coalesced around vile harassment of Zoe Quinn (and no, GG's retroactive attempt to link them on a "dossier" is not evidence). BTW, Jeff Gerstmann has repudiated Gamergate in no uncertain terms. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:21, 15 November 2014 (UTC) Can we please close this? This is a SYNTH objection to a claim that the article doesn't even make. Woodroar (talk) 20:27, 15 November 2014 (UTC) I'll agree (I was going to reply, but realize this is more for the inevitable arbcom case to discuss). --MASEM (t) 20:32, 15 November 2014 (UTC) Why are we in a rush to close discussion of sources and content? Thargor Orlando (talk) 20:41, 15 November 2014 (UTC) Because, as per Woodroar, we're not going to remove a source based on something it doesn't say. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:47, 15 November 2014 (UTC)