Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography

RfC: To broaden MOS:Deadname

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Should MOS:Deadname be updated to say:

In the case of transgender and non-binary people, former names should be included in article space only if the person was notable under that name. If included they can be introduced with either "born" or "formerly”. [Examples: Caitlyn Jenner (included), and Laverne Cox (omitted).]

Per the dignity of the person, by default assume that the name is of concern in the absence of such evidence, and minimize deadnaming as not doing so has been evidenced to cause real world harm. Gleeanon409 (talk) 08:20, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Q: Why is this needed?

A: MOS:Deadname currently only handles notable former names, of non-cisgender people, in the lead. This has left their non-notable former names a focus of contention across articles despite WP:BLPs “must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy”.

!votes

• (Summoned by bot)Support if the second paragraph is, either, removed, or greatly clarified (see below). Llew Mawr (talk) 10:11, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

  I didn't realise the first para remained unchanged. In light of that, in addition to my comments below, I somewhat support the proposer's avowed intent of reducing policy ambiguity and indirectly protecting less notable people from deadnaming via limited obscure sources, but fully oppose the proposed amendment which would only increase the ambiguity of our guidance. Llew Mawr (talk) 13:07, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

  The first paragraph isn't unchanged. As explained in the Q&A above, the current MOS:DEADNAME only applies to mentioning non-notable birth names in the lead. The proposed text would expand that principle to all article space.--Trystan (talk) 13:16, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• Support the first paragraph. Our current practice allows inclusion of non-notable birth names based on a few relatively obscure sources, making Wikipedia the primary means by which the name is "out there". Per WP:BLPPRIVACY, we can recognize that personal information not closely tied to notability shouldn't be included in an article unless already widely published, which will generally coincide with whether the person was notable under that name.--Trystan (talk) 13:19, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support the first paragraph. If additional clarification is needed, maybe something like: "The birth name of a non-cisgender subject not notable under that name may only be included if the subject has stated in RS that they do not mind the name being known. In the absence of such evidence, assume that mention of the name can cause real-world harm, and do not include it." Armadillopteryx 15:39, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support as written, but open to rewriting if the spirit of protecting trans people’s dignity is kept intact.
  We need to end the energy-draining squabbling across these articles. On Peppermint (entertainer), a massive amount of energy was spent when the two(!) names we had were both shown to be wrong. And Wikipedia was publishing these names worldwide. Gleeanon409 (talk) 15:43, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
• Opposed to expansion. The current guidance is a sensible compromise between two extremes. It acknowledges that, when someone becomes notable under a specific name, prior names are little more than trivial background information and can be omitted. However, when someone was notable under a prior name, that information is more than trivia, and should be included.

The desires of the bio subject are irrelevant to this determination. We include all sorts of information that a bio subject might not want included (from criminal records, to embarrassing public statements) ... as long as that information is not trivial. We determine triviality by seeing whether it is covered by reliable sources. Blueboar (talk) 16:50, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

The reason we don't include non-notable names isn't merely because they are trivial but because including private information in an article can cause real-world harm. See WP:BLPPRIVACY and WP:BLPNAME. Loki (talk) 17:20, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

• Support the (already existing) first paragraph, and the following rewording of the second paragraph: If the subject was not notable under their former name, it should usually not be included in the article even if some reliable sourcing exists for it. In the case of living persons, please bear in mind WP:BLPPRIVACY and treat the non-notable name as a separate (and usually much greater) privacy interest from the person's current name. Loki (talk) 17:12, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Note that this is simply re-stating existing policy in a convenient place. Loki (talk) 17:12, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

• I agree with Blueboar. We include all sorts of information that the subject might not like. Other examples include dates of birth and prior political or religious affiliations. We also include the prior names (or other names) of people like Tom Cruise, Katy Perry, Kirk Douglas, Sting, Shirley MacLaine, Michael Caine, Yul Brynner etc. It's not relevant whether the subject wants this information to be public. It's also not particularly relevant if this other name is "notable" or if it is "trivial". It was at some point that person's legal name.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:22, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support This an obvious extension of BLP of "do no harm". In contrast to celebs that have changed named, or immigrants that came over and changed names, and which are usually well documented to that point because these are people that have drawn attention to their overall biography, most transgender people tend to become famous after the transition. Not all want to hide their past but it is well-documented that many consider their former identity "dead" after transition (in contrast to the celeb/immigrants), and thus this can become a touchy issue. We should assume by default that transgender persons want to keep their past names in the past, and thus this is a completely fair policy and in line with BLP in general. We are not the equivalent of a "411" for any notable person, which is what some of those opposing seem to suggest. --Masem (t) 19:32, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support Absolutely. We do not exist to unfairly out folks or call attention to their identity, that would be undue weight. I think it perfectly in line with our BLP policies too, I quite like Masem's "do no harm" sentiment in this context. I also think this will reduce acrimony, as subject's dead names are often a point of contention. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 19:47, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support the intention but reword the second paragraph for optimum clarity. When rewording bear in mind that we not only need to avoid genuine good faith misunderstandings but also deliberate bad faith wikilawyering masquerading as misunderstanding. Clarity is vital. Some people will kvetch whatever the wording but we need to leave as little room for argument as possible. I like Loki's suggested text. I think that would be a good addition to the first paragraph. I also think that we do need an improved version of the second paragraph because it sets out why we have this policy, thus foreclosing any kvetching about it being "arbitrary" or "special treatment" or some such nonsense. --DanielRigal (talk) 20:18, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Agree with Blueboar. If a former name is sourced then it should be included. If it isn't sourced then it shouldn't be. We do this with everybody; I see no good reason to make an exception for certain categories of people. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:39, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

As I've been pointing out under other such comments, we do not in fact "do this with everybody". There is no Wikipedia policy to indiscriminately include information even if that information is reliably sourced. There is a specific Wikipedia policy to NOT include private information about living individuals even if that information is reliably sourced. Loki (talk) 17:28, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

• Support applying "only include if notable under that name" guideline for transgender people to entire article space, and stating that the default should be to exclude it until a consensus is reached. Okay with proposed phrasing except for "assume that the name is of concern", which seems like it should read "assume that the name is not of concern" based on context. ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 16:57, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support, preferably Loki’s suggestion applying "only include if notable under that name" guideline for transgender people to entire article space. Is this not the default position already? I see no reason to go beyond this.Pincrete (talk) 14:30, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

• The existing policy only says to leave the birth name out of the lead, which is the primary motivation for this RfC to expand that rule to the whole article. Armadillopteryx 14:42, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

• Support - including the deadname of individuals is potentially physically dangerous and can cause emotional harm. If there's no strong reason to include it (ie. notability under the deadname), it shouldn't be used. Gbear605 (talk) 20:05, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support Loki's suggestion I think it is clearer and captures the right balance. --Enos733 (talk) 21:34, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support Loki's suggestion as more clear and balanced, as well as explaninig why we have such a guideline. (t · c) buidhe 10:34, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support either as proposed or with Loki's amendment. This is an area where clearer guidance would be useful, and this is the kind of thing the guidance needs to be. Ralbegen (talk) 14:51, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support Loki's amendment as being clearer to potential readers on why the guidance exists, particularly vis-a-vis BLPs. It's about time. Raymie (t • c) 21:59, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support the first paragraph especially, and also (preferably) Loki's suggested second paragraph/part (although I am also OK with the OP's). As others have said, this is an area where clear guidance is needed (the current MOS:DEADNAME is, as Bilorv put it, "almost uniquely non-comprehensive out of everything in the MOS", and this is a good guideline and decent explanation of the rationale for it. -sche (talk) 23:35, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per points made by Blueboar, Jack Upland and Necrothesp. Birth names should not be completely banned from inclusion. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 01:51, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Discussion

The first paragraph is very clear, but, in the second, I don't understand what "of concern" means in context? Is it meant to just imply: if notability is in doubt, err toward avoiding deadnaming.

Also the referent of "not doing so" is unclear but I think it refers to the idea of not adding the name in the previous paragraph. In other words, it means "not not doing so" or "doing so". So, it would be better to be more explicit in a guideline.

Llew Mawr (talk) 10:11, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

It’s been argued that unless you can prove deadnaming causes distress in an individual case then it doesn’t matter. In fact IMO trans people don’t want to give the issue any energy so tend to not say anything about their dead names.

I trust the grammar can be cleaned up to still honor the spirit of respecting trans people. The second paragraph is largely to end edit-warring of finding ways to deadname. I see this happen often, from anons, drive-by edits, and even experienced editors. Gleeanon409 (talk) 15:32, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Do you mean "not of concern", maybe? Or "should not be included"? Or maybe "is personal information under WP:BLPPRIVACY"? Since it's the point of this RfC I feel like cleaning it up so it means the thing you meant (currently it definitely doesn't) is pretty important. Loki (talk) 17:03, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Shouldn’t be included. Gleeanon409 (talk) 17:51, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

@Gleeanon409: I think what people are trying to point out is that the phrasing in the proposal reads "assume that the name is of concern", which suggests that former names should be included by default, while your position seems to be that they shouldn't, so it should state "assume that the name is not of concern". ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 16:23, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

We should likely switch to something quite clear like “assume prior names are to be kept private unless the subject has indicated otherwise in reliable sources”. Gleeanon409 (talk) 19:43, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

I think this language is a strong improvement. This is also what I was getting at in my !vote. I would phrase it like: Assume that all former names should be omitted unless the subject has stated otherwise in reliable sources. Armadillopteryx 21:17, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

• As I stated above in my !Vote, I think this entire issue has been poorly framed. We routinely include other bits of information in BLPs that might cause the subject distress... so “it might cause distress” is to me not a valid reason to omit a former name.

Instead, I resolve the question of what names to mention by focusing on triviality. Former names are trivial background information unless the person is notable under that former name. Trivial background information may be interesting, but it isn’t necessary ... and so can freely be omitted. That is all that needs to be said. Blueboar (talk) 17:26, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

As I stated above, triviality is not the only reason we don't include people's names. Divulging personal information about someone can cause real world harm. I have personally asked Oversight multiple times to strike non-notable deadnames from articles and they've done it promptly every time. Loki (talk) 17:48, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

For transfolk they aren’t just trivial, they’re deadly. In a world that still preaches their existence is evil, immoral, etc., they are under continued threat of anguish and physical harm. Deadnaming is a main component in the cycle of abuse they face on a daily basis. Wikipedia shouldn’t contribute to it. Gleeanon409 (talk) 17:51, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Clearly WP:BLPPRIVACY already exists, as does the Oversight team. I don't see an argument that we need to expand existing guidelines.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:34, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

• With regard to Masem's comment above — "In contrast to celebs that have changed named, or immigrants that came over and changed names, and which are usually well documented to that point because these are people that have drawn attention to their overall biography, most transgender people tend to become famous after the transition" — I don't think this is true. Take Kirk Douglas. According to our article he was born "Issur Danielovitch" (in the USA), grew up as "Izzy Demsky", and took the name "Kirk Douglas" at about age 25. He was only famous as Kirk Douglas. His earlier names are trivial, you could say. Are we going to end up saying that people's Jewish identity needs to be suppressed because they could be targeted by anti-Semites??? I think you have to look at genuine invasion of privacy and genuine harm.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:18, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

  Am I the only person who didn't know Kirk Douglas was transgender? EEng 03:17, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

  • My comment there is that at least up until recently, the lives of celebrities have been usually been put until microscopes by nature of being celebrities, and so past names/etc. are well documented. Same with famous researchers and other creatives (eg Ralph H. Baer). Most of the time, these people have offered up their own old names in their autobios (as with Douglas) or interviews or long-form articles about the person (implying that the person provided that information freely to a RS at somepoint). What we want to avoid is people going to court reports, news briefs, and far less reliable sources to connect old to new names in the absolute definite case when the user has made efforts to make that disconnect (ur example in practice here until recently was the Star Wars Kid who we could have named via news sources but we knew wanted to keep out of the public, until a few years ago where he publicly stated he was ready to connect his name to that as to take steps to address bullying he got).
  • That leaves the situation when we have no indication to what the BLP/BIO wants with their old name, and that's where BLP's "do no harm" says we should use caution and avoid inclusion if we can, if we have no idea of the person's intent. We should assume such name connections are harmful (heck we assume this for editors per OUTING) regardless if they are trans or not.
  • It thus becomes a matter of common sense of evaluating sources. Notability is the factor here, but also, even if the person wasn't notable, in looking at long-form , in-depth articles about the person, how is their old name being thrown around? (and this is the in general question, should apply across the board, even though we're asking for transgender persons). If the person is clearly offering their old name up in response to questions in multiple sources and goes on about their past in conjunction with, its probably ok to include. But if its like something it looks like a reporter had to speed weeks looking to find and only to use to add that as the old name before moving on, and its only in one or two sources, its probably a reason to skip inclusion quickly. It's just the attitude of "it's just data, we should include it regardless" is not good, because BLP does say otherwise and to think a bit smarter here. --Masem (t) 21:04, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Further refinement of wording

Per the close of this RfC, I've changed "in the lead sentence" to "article space" at MOS:DEADNAME. I did not add the new paragraph, since it's not clear to me what version of its wording has consensus. How should that part be done? Armadillopteryx 01:13, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Armadillopteryx, I'm coming across this discussion after the close, but something that I see in the discussion above that hasn't yet been translated into the guideline is that this applies to BLPs, not BDPs, where the harm rationale and WP:BLPPRIVACY do not apply.

I recently made a few fixes to Virginia Prince, a pioneer who came out all the way back in the 1940s (and who I would love to see become a GA or FA eventually), and I did not hesitate much before adding her deadname—she's no longer alive, so it won't harm her, and it's a valid part of the encyclopedic historical record of her life. That decision seems aligned with consensus based on the sentiments above, but it's going against the letter of the guideline as currently written, so the guideline needs to be revised. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 05:01, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

@Sdkb: I see what you're saying. To be honest, it's not clear to me whether all who supported the change meant it only for BLPs or for biographies in general. Some explicitly referenced WP:BLPPRIVACY, but others presented a rationale that could be reasonably interpreted to cover dead subjects as well. The additional text proposed at the start of the RfC never gained consensus on its wording. In the original RfC text, that part refers to BLPs, but variations were presented in the comments (and here). If others want to chime in and clarify whether they were talking about only BLPs (and indicate their preferred wording), that would be helpful. Armadillopteryx 08:39, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Armadillopteryx, seeing no further comments, I'm going to adjust the guidance at MOS:DEADNAME to specify that it applies to BLPs, since it is not clear that there is consensus for it to apply to BDPs, and we should be cautious about adding anything to that effect until it is clear otherwise. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 08:17, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

So the change by Armadillopteryx is why mentioning the name in the lead even became an issue at the Joey Soloway article. I don't think that change is best, given that the section in question is entirely about leads. It should at least state "in the lead or other article space." But, really, "article space" is vague. And while I get that it was meant to be vague, we don't typically drop the name anywhere in the article, such as in the "Career" section. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 04:18, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

To whoever, please don't ping me if you reply. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 04:19, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

That change was prescribed by the outcome of the RfC above. If your main concern is with the wording rather than with the change happening at all, there are other options. "In the article text or infobox", for example, would also work IMO. Armadillopteryx 05:21, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

That RfC is not focused on removing "in the lead." And there is no consensus against "in the lead" being there. Again, since the section is focused on the lead, "in the lead" should be there, like it was for years. The new wording was used to try to keep a notable name that belongs in the lead out of the lead. And if it's going to be used in that way, the current wording needs to be remedied. It's not like we are going to remove Chelsea Manning's birth name from the lead of that article. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 05:44, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

The RfC text says: Should MOS:Deadname be updated to say: In the case of transgender and non-binary people, former names should be included in article space only if the person was notable under that name. If included they can be introduced with either "born" or "formerly”. [Examples: Caitlyn Jenner (included), and Laverne Cox (omitted).

I think you have misunderstood the purpose of the RfC, which was formulated specifically to expand MOS:DEADNAME to apply to the whole article and not just the lead. Armadillopteryx 07:01, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

It was meant to keep non-notable deadnames out of the whole article, yes, but now it looks that it could be reversed and misapplied to argue that notable deadnames just have to be somewhere in the article, so we should bury it somewhere lower down. Meanwhile readers are wondering if the article they've arrived at is the person they are thinking of or not. Crossroads ^-talk- 19:19, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to further clarification, but I note that saying a notable deadname is permissible in "article space" or "in the article text" includes the lead, since the lead is part of both "article space" and "the article text" (i.e. I find this redundant). Neither of those options states anything about what part of the article the name must (or must not) be in. I don't think anyone could reasonably argue based on this policy that the name must be located outside the lead, as that's not what it says. I also think that the current wording ("the lead or article text") is not preferable to "article space", because the latter also includes the infobox and title, whereas the former does not. Armadillopteryx 21:09, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Stating "in the lead or in article text" at least shows that in the lead is acceptable, rather than allowing people to argue that we can put the old name anywhere (and some editors will misguidedly try to put it somewhere inconspicuous). Above was mentioned where confusion was developing on this point (only two weeks after the "article space" wording was implemented), specifically at this and this edit. At that latter comment we see the flawed argument, the policy MOS:MULTIPLENAMES only states name should be in the article space; I'm taking it at it's literal word. The policy is clear and able to distinguish between lead and article space when it necessary. As for "article text" vs. "article space", that was SMcCandlish who made that change, but I understand why because "article space" is jargony and confusing to new editors. (I can imagine them thinking "Article... space? Huh?")

Here's a possible way to re-write the sentence, taking the above into consideration, as well as the above RfC which forbade non-notable deadnames anywhere in the article: In the case of a living transgender or non-binary person, the birth name should only be included in the lead if the person was notable under that name; otherwise the birth name should not appear anywhere in the article. Crossroads ^-talk- 03:40, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

That almost sounds good to me, though drop "only" which serves no useful purpose here and makes it unclear whether inclusion of the name when it does qualify for inclusion is actually recommended (it is). More problematically, the lengthy sentence structure is ambiguous, because the "otherwise" has no certain referent, and can be read as excluding mention of former name that does qualify for the lead, anywhere else in the article, such as the early life section. That's clearly not the intent, and it's better to use multiple sentence. We have three goals here: say that names from the period of notability are usable appropriately, say that they should be in the lead, and say that old names that pre-date notability should not be used at all. So, try this: In the case of a living transgender or non-binary person, the birth name should only be included if the person was notable under that name; it should then appear in the lead, and may be used elsewhere in the article where contextually appropriate. A birth name that was not used when the subject was notable should not appear anywhere in the article. We might also consider trimming "used elsewhere in the article" down to "used elsewhere" because, as one example, Caitlyn Jenner should be referred to as "Bruce (now Caitlyn) Jenner" in articles on past Olympic games; we already have language saying it's appropriate to use "now [name]" or "later [name]" clarifications (because I added it during my cleanup). PS: Yes, I changed it to "article text" (or just "article" above) because "article space" is jargony and confusing to new editors, but also because it was a loophole: templates that render text in articles are in the template namespace not the article namespace, but their output is part of the article and is meant to be covered. Just one of those WP:Writing policy is hard things; you have to game out in your mind every way someone may try to wikilawyer or system-game around something.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:03, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

That entire section has been getting more and more palimpsestuous over the last two years or so, making less and less sense to those not steeped in debating about it – a "Well, I know what I meant it to mean" problem. It's important to remember that guideline (and policy) pages are written primarily for new editors and as dispute-resolution reference works among more experienced ones. For both reasons, the material needs to be crystal-clear. So I did a cleanup pass on it, fixing all kinds of grammar errors, poor sentence structure, subtly contradictory instructions across different parts of it (and between it and other WP:P&G material), pointless rambling and linking of everyday words like "marriage", missing cross-references to relevant material, clumsy "just stick a shortcut in here" cross-refs., confusing material order, mis-placed shortcuts, shortcuts without anchors, etc., etc. I've endeavored to not change the meaning/implementation in any way, other than the addition of clarifications that are in the same spirit as the revision process above (i.e., make it say what consensus actually is and how various existing policies and guidelines apply to these matters). PS: I think all the relevant shortcut redirects have been updated.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  09:25, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

How to address military rank honorifics

The Project:Military History section of the wiki has come across something rather perplexing; how to handle military ranks. A considerable portion of military officers (particularly German) have their military ranks inserted above their name in the infobox, meaning the honorific section. While certain high ranks like the British field marshal, American General of the Army and German Generalfeldmarschall are honorifics, other examples are ambiguous and may not be. Pages like Gottlob Berger present his rank of SS lieutenant general (SS-Obergruppenführer und General der Waffen-SS) above the name as an acceptable use despite the rank not being an honorific. The military talk project has already discussed this at length [[1]].

What are the guidelines on this? I don't see military rank used for other countries and don't see why we should make an exception for Nazi officers. TFD (talk) 15:53, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I’m not clear on the issue here. Military ranks are not honorifics, they are ranks. Please clarify. Blueboar (talk) 16:11, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I had a related question about combining honorifics and ranks, as in the current revision of Erin O'Toole. The infobox currently reads "Captain the Honourable" above a pic of O'Toole, which reads very oddly to me. As ARandomRedditorWikipediist pointed out on the talk, few of the articles on former PMs who served in the military include military ranks in the infobox (see this list). Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. AleatoryPonderings (talk) 18:13, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I could be wrong... but it seems that the issue is that the template does not have “Military Rank” field ... so editors are USING the “honorifics” field for that purpose. That’s a problem with templates - the pre-set fields don’t always match the info we want to include, so we force the info into fields that are “close enough”. Blueboar (talk) 20:02, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Makes sense. On a second look, {{Infobox officeholder}} has some params for military service such as rank, branch, etc., so it looks as if his military title is already handled elsewhere in the infobox. If I'm reading this right, I think deleting "captain" from the top line is reasonable. AleatoryPonderings (talk) 20:10, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I think the captain here would be the captain of a ship, not necessary as a rank, but, well, as a honorific. Lectonar (talk) 06:06, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

I apologize for the lack of clarity, but due to the depth of the discussion we were undertaking, I was uncertain if I could summarize to a suitable level. To wit, the problem at hand involves the use of military ranks as honorifics. The highest military rank of esteemed officers (particularly with regard to those of five-star or six-star rank) are prominently displayed above the article image in the honorific-prefix section. This commonality is not exclusive to Third Reich or Nazi officers but the trend was first noticed in those sort of pages. Users Kierzek and Peacemaker67 (among others) have spoken about the necessity of these in length since a rank field already exists in the military-type infobox. Officers such as Dwight D. Eisenhower, Douglas Macarthur, and Gottlob Berger see this fashion of use. User Peacemaker67 in particular has noted that no attention has been raised on this matter leading to at least a local consensus on inserting military ranks in the honorific-prefix field. To quote from Kierzek in the forum: "While it is true a person can receive an honorary rank, that is often times granted to a civilian for something specific or upon retirement. So there are occasions where is it appropriate for use, however, that does not apply to the men of articles I reverted. An "honorific" as stated in the Wikipedia article, for example, "is to convey esteem, courtesy or respect for position", often in the academic world."" Hence, what we are looking for is:

• The criteria needed for a rank to count as a honorific. While individual ranks have theur own criteria, users on the project concur that guidelines on the matter are hazy.
• If rank honorifics bloat the honorific-prefix section (if a holder already has a sizeable number of honours to their name) and should be treated accordingly.
• If rank honorifics (such as in the aforementioned articles) should be removed, and what should be the extent of the changes made.

The project community agrees that a general consensus should be made for the purposes of clarity. Someone here asked what the guidelines on this are, and it seems that specific rules on this are virtually non-existent. SuperWIKI (talk) 07:36, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

• Comment I asked that this be brought here for a community consensus after it was raised at Milhist talk, as some editors continue to claim "local consensus" on it, and guidance one way or another would be useful. The current guidelines for the usage of the honorifics field in Template:Infobox military person actually suggest putting the rank here, as explained above. However, there are several factors which have not been reflected above as yet. In many militaries, rank is used as an honorific even for retired officers, the Commonwealth standard being that it is used for officers of the rank of Major (equivalent) and above. This means that even though they have retired, they are addressed as "Major" etc, invitations are addressed to "Major Billy Bloggs" etc. On top of that, tertiary references in the field of military history such as the Oxford Companion to Military History include the rank of officers along with honorifics such as "Sir" in the title of the entry. For example, "Browne, Gen Sir Samuel" and "Gneisenau, FM Graf August Wilhelm Neihardt von" (FM meaning Field Marshal). I'll add that in Commonwealth countries, people are addressed as "General Sir Samuel Browne", or Colonel Doctor Billy Bloggs", meaning that the military rank is given priority over the knighthood. This is reflected in protocols in Debrett's A–Z of Modern Manners. So, why would we single out military ranks for exclusion as an honorific, but continue to include "Sir" per MOS:SIR? Perhaps we should adopt a guideline that specifies using the honorific field for ranks of Major and above, and the rank field for lower ranks? Finally, I have half-a-dozen military biography FAs of Australians and Germans that have included rank as an honorific, and it has never been raised in a review, which reflects a weak consensus that it is actually fine. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:19, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
• Another Comment I noticed the problem when some edits adding honorifics popped up on my watchlist (some SS-officers, and more are still listed with their SS-rank as a honorific now). I read through the manual of style (didn't find anything helpful for the question here), had a look at the German Wikipedia (same), reverted some additions of the rank as a honorific, and subsequently (together with Kierzek) pointed the OP to Milhist. While what has been said above may be true for the Commonwealth, you can be sure that at least in Germany no SS-rank would have been used as a honorific (even for a retired officer) after the end of WWII. As for consensus or not, the little discussion at Milhist at least seems to point to not using them as honorifics, but list them as ranks in the pertaining infobox. The whole topic hasn't been given much tought imho. Lectonar (talk) 06:04, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Again, while it is true a person can receive an honorary title/rank, that is often times granted to a civilian for something specific or upon retirement. I agree with Lectonar above, in relation to the SS bio articles I reverted on my watchlist. A rank is not the same as an honorific title by definition. And the info-box already has a section/box to add in a person's rank. Kierzek (talk) 15:51, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

When do we translate names?

Ex. first hames, John vs Johann/Jan? What if there is inconsistent usage in English sources, so COMMONAME cannot be applied? Do we prefer the English name per USEENGLISH or the name of the subject used/grew up with? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:35, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

• The principle of “what is most recognizable” still applies... If no COMMONNAME can be determined looking at purely English language sources, broaden the search... see if one can be determined looking at ALL sources (English and non-English combined). If there is still no COMMONNAME, I would go with self-identification (ie the name the person uses/used when referring to himself). Blueboar (talk) 02:13, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
• Usually a COMMONNAME can be determined, but not always. For older cases, some sources still use the formal Latin version (eg Johannes) because that was often used in birth registers etc (even in England as late as the 18th century), so if in doubt prefer a vernacular version to that. For people who lived in different countries etc 2 or more different names may be needed right at the start. Johnbod (talk) 02:35, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

• If a majority of sources don’t use one name, I suggest using the legal name. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:30, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

I prefer to look at it on a case by case basis. We refer to Joseph Stalin but Mikhail Gorbachev, rather than Ioseb Stalin and Michael Gorbachev. It's likely because Western media loved Stalin as our ally in WW2, but hated Gorbachev in the Cold War, that they westernized Stalin's first name, but not Gorbachev's. Ironically, media perception later reversed. But I can't think of a rule that would explain this other than COMMONNAME. TFD (talk) 06:38, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

No Gorbachev was actually popular in the west early on and seen as a reformer the west could do business with. And Stalin wasn't adored at first - that only came when the Soviet Union were in the war. It's more to do with shifts in the media approach to non-English names over half a century and also some countries have put a bit of effort into establishing a clear "brand" for their leaders in foreign language media that gets the name sorted out early on. (Not all - the legion of different spellings for Muammar Gaddafi are an example of one who made no real effort.) Timrollpickering (talk) 09:55, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

On reflection, it seems that we are less likely to anglicize names than in the past. TFD (talk) 16:54, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

• For background / example see discussion of Sophia Poznańska. PamD 06:59, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

WP:Surname and MOS:GENDERID with regard to drag queen articles

Opinions are needed on the following: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#WP:Surname and MOS:GENDERID with regard to drag queen articles. A permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 22:49, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Relevant discussion about eliminating name-format templates

See Wikipedia talk:Hatnote#Planning for the future of surname clarification and comment there if you have an opinion about those templates like {{Western name order}} that we use to indicate that a biography is of a person whose native naming conventions are not the western ones. Some people there think they should be removed for being formatted like hatnotes but not having the same function as hatnotes. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:57, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

When is a stage name a stage name?

There's a debate underway at Talk:Kim Seok-jin about the usage of stage names vs. surnames on subsequent references in articles. Basically, the aforementioned article is the only BTS member to use surnames on subsequent mentions. Consider this comparison:

Article title	Kim Seok-jin	Jungkook
Introductory sentences	Kim Seok-jin (Korean: 김석진; born on December 4, 1992), also known by his stage name Jin, is a South Korean singer, songwriter, and member of the South Korean boy band BTS since June 2013. Kim was scouted for the group while in university and joined Big Hit Entertainment as an actor, eventually transitioning to a Korean idol.	Jeon Jung-kook (Korean: 전정국; born September 1, 1997), better known mononymously as Jungkook (stylized as Jung Kook), is a South Korean singer and songwriter. He is a member of and vocalist in the South Korean boy band BTS.
Subsequent reference in solo activities section	Kim collaborated with fellow BTS member V on the song "It's Definitely You", released as part of the Hwarang: The Poet Warrior Youth original soundtrack. He also joined BTS member Jungkook to sing and release an alternate version of "So Far Away", a song from BTS member Suga's self-titled mixtape Agust D.	In September 2015, Jungkook participated in the "One Dream, One Korea" campaign, taking part in a song collaboration alongside numerous Korean artists in memory of the Korean War.

That later passage in the Kim Seok-jin article is particularly jarring. His other bandmates are referred to by stage names, yet he is referred to by a family name. One of the proposals in the discussion is to change all the BTS members' articles to use surnames, but that seems to be a dangerous opening of the floodgates. I'd like to get broader input about the issue from people concerned with consistency on the styling of names. How should we approach this situation? —C.Fred (talk) 02:40, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Typically I'd expect subsequent mentions to be consistent with the page title, which is presumably their WP:COMMONNAME. Why is BTS an exception, or is this a wider practice?—Bagumba (talk) 03:29, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

The issue with Jin is disambiguation. It was felt that his given name is the natural disambiguator, since there are collisions at that title. —C.Fred (talk) 00:02, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

If there's agreement that he is commonly referred to as "Jin", then it's reasonable to use that in prose instead of his surname. On the other hand, I'm assuming that his full name is somewhat familiar to readers given that it was used as a natural disambiguator. If that were the case, it might be decided that it's less informal to use the surname.—Bagumba (talk) 08:18, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

On pathological interpretations of a nickname and a generational suffix presented together

• From Magic Johnson: Earvin "Magic" Johnson Jr. (born August 14, 1959) is ...

So I guarantee some knucklehead will, from this formulation, conclude that Earvin Johnson Sr. was also nicknamed "Magic" (which is demonstrably false). Can that be helped, or should we care? ―cobaltcigs 13:30, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Clarification on MOS:DEADNAME

The deadname section states birth names should be included in article space only when the person was notable under that name. When we say, "in article space", does this apply to infoboxes? Or are they exempt from this rule? As an example, see Nyla Rose. Her name is removed from the main article proper, but it's still in the infobox. I'm unsure whether to remove it. The source in the infobox with her birth name shows acting roles she had when she was male, but I'm not sure she would have been considered notable back then. If she wasn't notable at this point, should her birth name also be removed from the infobox? Thanks. — Czello 07:53, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Infoboxes are part of article space. More strongly, the infobox is supposed to be a supplement to an article, not a replacement for it, so there should be nothing in an infobox that is not also included as part of the main text of the article. —David Eppstein (talk) 08:04, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Great, thanks. — Czello 08:23, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

People who are not the subject of the article

This at the end of MOS:NEE:

A person named in an article in which they are not the subject should be referred to by the name they used at the time being described in the article. For example, Pope John Paul I was known as Albino Luciani before he was elevated to the papacy, so a depiction of the time before he became pope should use the name Albino Luciani. See also MOS:IDENTITY.

I have seen multiple instances where the names of The Wachowskis have been changed retroactively. But the quoted rule seems to say that the director of The Matrix should have remained the Wachowski brothers Andy and Larry. I then looked at MOS:IDENTITY but couldn't immediately find anything to countersay this.

To me, it seems our MOS guideline needs to be rephrased to distinguish between

"After the cardinal electors assembled in Rome, they elected Cardinal Albino Luciani, Patriarch of Venice, as the new pope on the fourth ballot." (August 1978 papal conclave)

and

"She was created by The Wachowskis, and portrayed by Gloria Foster[4] in the first[1] and second film[5] and Mary Alice in the third film.[2]" (The Oracle (The Matrix))

The first sentence adheres to the guideline (it isn't changed); the second does not (it is changed despite being an article in which The Wachowskis are not the subject).

What would you suggest as an improved phrasing of MOS:NEE?

Regards, CapnZapp (talk) 15:41, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

This comes up a lot with various sorts of people, from women who later marry to British politicians etc who later become lords. At the very least editors should be encouraged to put both forms in the text - it is often confusing or unhelpful to the reader not to, even where the "final" name is visible if you hover over a link. But what is appropriate will vary, & we should not be too prescriptive - which we seem to be at present. However, I agree that "the name they used at the time being described in the article" should normally be included. Johnbod (talk) 15:52, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Of course, in the case of the second sentence, it if is possible to avoid a complex naming issue (eg instead of using the "Wachowski brothers" but the "Wachowskis") that seems to be fair. It would be wrong to use "Wachowskis siblings" (that's far too generic and seems degrading). But this appears to be a rather special case, as normally we are talking individuals and we need a first and last name at minimum to be specific, eg if we're talking Caitlyn Jenner prior to her transition (eg you have to refer to Jenner as Bruce Jenner over at CHiPs). --Masem (t) 16:02, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

In response to Capn Zapp, I don't see how using "the Wachowskis" represents a violation of "the name they used at the time" principle. They have always been "the Wachowskis", whatever else they have individually or collectively been called at various times. Newimpartial (talk) 16:19, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

What Newimpartial said. Find a better example where this is an issue. --Izno (talk) 16:24, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

A more common problem might be exemplified by Pamela Digby/Churchill/Hayward/Harriman who was a fairly well-known figure over many decades under each of her four successive names (birth & 3 husbands). Johnbod (talk) 17:13, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Still seems to me to use the name at the time when associated with the topic. I would only add that if we're talking someone who became only famous under one of their latter names and their earlier names are more obscure when used in these other articles, this is where one might one use something like "Mr. Smith married Jane Doe in 19xx (who later was better known as "Famous Name") and divorced her in 19xx." (where "Famous Name" is where the wikilink would be) Hard to show without a good example but I think that idea may be clear). --Masem (t) 20:28, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Any article on 19th-century British politics will give plenty of examples. Usually, and I think correctly, the solution is to link the first, contemporary name, even if the title at the linked article is the later name, though there is much inconsistency. Examples of other ways:

• From William Wellesley-Pole, 3rd Earl of Mornington: "He was the younger brother of Richard Wesley, later Marquess Wellesley, and the elder brother of Arthur, who became Duke of Wellington, and of Henry, who became Lord Cowley." - I wouldn't do that myself.
• From Charles Meryon: "... she became the mistress of Viscount Lowther, the future William Lowther, 2nd Earl of Lonsdale, then an unmarried Tory MP, junior minister, and ..."

Johnbod (talk) 21:47, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Can I first ask editors such as Newimpartial to respond to the actual subject matter at hand rather than getting caught up on technicalities? Thank you. CapnZapp (talk) 08:32, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Now then, seeing general agreement, the question remains: What would you suggest as an improved phrasing of MOS:NEE?

CapnZapp (talk) 08:32, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Whatever the wording is, it should only apply to an appropriate set of cases. Any wording that empowers editors to revert the Wachowskis references is not ok with me. -Newimpartial (talk) 11:19, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

That's my point exactly! I brought this up precisely because I detected the guideline might not be in line with our intentions! CapnZapp (talk) 14:17, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

We are discussing this at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography, but the principle is by no means restricted to biographies. For example the Wachowskis will come up in many other types of articles. I think it would be better to discuss this at the main MOS, & add something there, plus of course here too. Johnbod (talk) 13:29, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, this is Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography, no need to self-link :-) With respect, I am bringing up a highly specific case. Do feel free to start a general discussion elsewhere, just don't forget about the originating question please: What would you suggest as an improved phrasing of MOS:NEE? CapnZapp (talk) 14:17, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

You called the section "People who are not the subject of the article" so taking it beyond the scope of MOS:NEE, which is all about how to start (etc) biographical articles. I think any changes to MOS:NEE on this should follow changes to the wider MOS. Johnbod (talk) 14:39, 6 October 2020 (ITC)

• If my memory is correct, this provision was added to deal with disputes over how to refer to Bruce/Caitlin Jenner in articles about the 1976 Olympics. It was determined that since Jenner competed (and entered the record books) under the name “Bruce”, that “Bruce” was the appropriate “historical record” name to use in those articles. The concept would apply in similar “historical record” situations.

That said, the case of the Wachowskis is a bit different... because we have a third option: Since they usually worked as a duo, it would be appropriate to refer to the pair AS “the Wachowskis”, omitting first names completely. Blueboar (talk) 14:47, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

In terms of changing the wording, I would simply consider the case of the Wachowskis as an exceptional case, but an example that can be referenced, in that if it is possible to refer to them by a name that may not have been used at the time for the article in question but for all purposes is clear and obvious of the identity of the people involved, and avoids other naming issues like deadnaming, that should be used instead. But it seems such an IAR-type case that it may not need to be added for the one specific example. Unless there's several dozen other types of cases, we shouldn't worry about carving out MOS for just one problem situation. --Masem (t) 14:50, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

So... doing nothing is the outcome in practice here? CapnZapp (talk) 12:48, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Muslim names

A change by an IP editor to the Khalik Allah article left this edit summary: "It's very offensive to All Muslims in the world to call someone Allah his name is Khalik Allah not Allah his name means Allah Creation don't call him Allah that's very offensive it like calling someone named Abdul Allah (God servant) Allah that's not how it goes." MOS:SURNAME and MOS:GIVENNAME appear to offer no guidance on this matter. How should I proceed? Thanks. Lopifalko (talk) 09:55, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Interesting. Wakeel Allah refers to the subject as "Wakeel Allah" throughout, and Ikhlef Ahmed Hadj Allah, Abdel Hadj Khallaf Allah and Zahra Rahmat Allah are such short stubs that they don't mention the subject again. All have defaultsort of "Allah" - that's how I found them, at Category:Living_people. There may well be other biographies of (dead) people with the surname "Allah": it's not easy to find them, as there is no Allah (surname), and no mention of any of them at Allah (disambiguation). A rough scan through the first 500 hits for "Allah" shows a few people with it as a given name but nothing else which looks like a surname (except perhaps "Thérèse Allah, better known as Allah Thérèse". PamD 10:33, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

My inclination would be to simply use the first name (Khalik) for subsequent mentions. Blueboar (talk) 12:07, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Some early Puritans used compound religious phrases as names, like "Nicholas If-Jesus-Christ-Had-Not-Died-For-Thee-Thou-Hadst-Been-Damned Barbon". It's a middle name in this case, but we certainly wouldn't shorten it to "If" or "Damned". Similarly, for someone named "Pam" we wouldn't shorten the name to "Pa" or "am". It seems like this is likely something of the same thing, where the whole phrase is a single name rather than something separable into first and last names, and we should keep it intact rather than making up shortenings of it. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:07, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Should we steer this into being enshrined in MOS? -Lopifalko (talk) 17:16, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Some minor changes

Apparently, it is now required (by User:GiantSnowman) that all changes, no matter how minor, be discussed and have consensus before being edited into the page. Hence, I would like to propose these two changes to the page:

A. That this:

Beyond the first paragraph of the lead section, birth and death details are not included after a name except in a case of special contextual relevance.

Be changed to this:

Beyond the first paragraph of the lead section, birth and death details can be included after a name, but only if there is special contextual relevance.

To remove unnecessary (rather unsightly) bolding, and to shorten and make the prose more direct and readable.

B. And this:

Generally speaking, notability is not inherited, which means the fact that a person is the spouse of another notable person does not make that person notable.

Be changed to this:

Generally speaking, notability is not inherited; e.g. a person being the spouse or child of another notable person does not make that person notable.

To clarify that the rule "notability is not inherited" applies to more than just the spousal relationship, which the current sentence implies.

LK (talk) 14:04, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

With A, the formatting and wording is there for a reason, and saying "not included ... except" is clearer than "can be included ... but only if". With B, I suggest the wording is changed to "Generally speaking, notability is not inherited, which means the fact that a person is the spouse or relative of another notable person does not make that person notable". GiantSnowman 14:08, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

In A, I do not see how a statement stated in the negative can be "clearer". As for your suggestion for B, (apart from being ungrammatical) the sentence still implies that the rule "notability is not inherited" is only for spousal or blood relationships. Using the phrase "for example" or "e.g", would signal that the rule applies for other types of relationships as well. LK (talk) 07:35, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Your proposed wording for B is 'spouse or child', mine is 'spouse or relative' - so yours is actually narrower! So why are you complaining that my suggested wording "still implies that the rule "notability is not inherited" is only for spousal or blood relationships"? GiantSnowman 16:56, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

You are not reading correctly. I am suggesting to use the phrase "for example" or "e.g", which means that there are other cases unmentioned. Your wording implies that the list is complete. Also, do you not see that the sentence "..., notability is not inherited, which means the fact that a person is the spouse of another notable person does not make that person notable" is grammatically awkward? At the least, the sentence should be made more readable.  LK (talk) 11:30, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

I am reading correctly. You suggested "spouse or child", did you not? Please ask yourself - why has nobody else suggested these changes before? Is it because the wording is fine as it is? GiantSnowman 17:31, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

You are the one not addressing the correct issue. Throw in spouse or child or blood relationship or whatever, that's totally fine with me. My issue is that the current phrasing implies an complete listing. My suggested phrasing, using "for example" or "e.g.", implies that there are other situations as well. And you still have not addressed the issue that the original sentence is ungrammatical. LK (talk) 06:17, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Coming back to Proposal A. Can we agree that a sentence stated in the positive is clearer than a sentence stated in the negative? Also, do we have consensus about the current bolded and italicized formatting of the current sentence. Or do people feel that this doubled emphasis is unnecessary for a relatively straightforward issue. LK (talk) 06:23, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Should the Joey Soloway article include Soloway's birth name in the lead?

Opinions are needed on the following: Talk:Joey Soloway#MOS:GENDERID with regard to article titles. A permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 20:32, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Tense if we don't know whether someone's dead

A general question regarding WP:BLPTENSE stemming from discussions about the actor Talk:Reuben Greene: What do we do about the tense ("Reuben Greene is a former actor" versus "Reuben Greene was an actor") if (a) we don't know whether the subject is still alive or (b) indications that the actor is dead come only from unreliable sources, even a Wikipedia editor (WP:OR!)?

Perhaps one could posit a cutoff age A, maybe 120 or 150, beyond which we could establish a rebuttable presumption that a subject is dead. Then it would always be correct to write "X was a Y" if X was born more than A years ago. But even in that case, what assumption should be made, for example, for someone whose heyday was in their 20s and who would now, if they're alive, be less than A—80, 90, 100?

As long as I've raised this here, is it OK also to discuss here the related question of whether the person belongs in Category:Living people? Largoplazo (talk) 16:50, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

First see WP:BDP - Basically if we don't have RSes but the person would be otherwise younger than 115, we presume them living, and would use present tense. Otherwise we would presume them dead and use past tense. --Masem (t) 16:53, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Oh, OK, thanks. Should that be mentioned here, at WP:BLPTENSE, as well? After all, it occurred to me to look for the answer to this under this general page about biographies rather than one specifically about people already understood to be alive. Largoplazo (talk) 17:16, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Maybe we could add the sentence: "If a person is younger than 115, and no reliable sources have reported that the person has died, then they should be presumed living." LK (talk) 06:33, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

If that is added (which seems fine) just make sure you mention that this is in-line with the BLP policy on presuming living/dead when that's otherwise unknown. --Masem (t) 15:18, 16 October 2020 (UTC)