Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions
Important information Please use this page only to:
For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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Aredoros87
Closed with various sanctions for both Aredoros87 and KhndzorUtogh, see result section for a summary. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:07, 29 December 2023 (UTC) | ||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Aredoros87
I am aware of the WP:BRD process and WP:CONS building. I do my best to avoid edit warring and work together with other editors, not against them. On one article I was reverted and never reverted the other user back, instead I had a long discussion that the other user who eventually stopped replying a month ago, but I still haven't reverted them since. Callanecc has voiced the concern 'while KU has provided some examples what I think they've demonstrated is that they were doing it sometimes but not in this instance'. In those instances, I felt what I was reverting had to be removed immediately for MOS:ALLEGED in a contentious subject and WP:LIBEL, which states to remove the material when identified. I was only trying to do what I thought the guidelines required; I generally don't mind leaving my changes reverted until a consensus is reached. I didn't even want to make this report, a lot of other users probably would've done so immediately after Aredoros used a source denying the Armenian genocide (explicitly condemned in WP:GS/AA) but I instead wanted to explain why that kind of source isn't reliable. I only felt compelled to make this report after the personal attack. If my understanding of the alleged and libel pages was incorrect, I apologize, and will be even more careful to avoid edit warring in the future. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 18:36, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Aredoros87Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Aredoros87R1.KU presented diffs in a misleading timeframe, but:
Statement by GrandmasterPer WP:Boomerang, I think it would be appropriate to look into KhndzorUtogh's own recent activity. Today he removed from 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh the information provided by the top international organization, the UN, claiming that the UN info was false, despite no authoritative international organization or other third party source contesting it: [15] [16] Previously, he was among those who objected to inclusion of the same information in the related article of Flight of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians. In order to resolve the dispute, I followed the advice of an admin and did an RFC on whether the UN information on violence against civilians during the recent hostilities should be included or not. The overwhelming community consensus was that the UN information should be included, and it was restored to the article. [17] Now KhndzorUtogh removes the same information from another article on the related topic, despite the clear community consensus that this information is relevant to the topic. Do we have to do RFCs on the same topic on every article concerning the same event, or it is enough to form the community consensus once and follow it? Grandmaster 10:14, 22 December 2023 (UTC) The information about the UN mission at the bottom of the article omits any mention of the UN mission report that it "did not come across any reports — either from the local population or from others — of violence against civilians following the latest ceasefire". This is the same situation that led to RFC in the article about the flight of Karabakh Armenians, where the UN mission was mentioned, but the part about civilian casualties was omitted. And 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh and Flight of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians are pretty much the same article split in 2, as one event led to the other. The arguments against inclusion of the UN mission findings about violence against civilians were discussed in much detail during the RFC, and were rejected by the community, but KhndzorUtogh keeps bringing them up again on a related article. Grandmaster 10:50, 23 December 2023 (UTC) With regard to this diff, when the UNCHR statement was removed with the comment that its place implied a rebuttal of a later statement by another source, I rearranged it chronologically to address the concern, when that was reverted by the same user, I continued discussion at talk. It is also worth mentioning that back in 2021 there was a complaint about KU [18], then a new user, of undoing edits by the same above-mentioned banned user Curious Golden regardless of their merit, and he was advised by the admins against doing that. Grandmaster 23:20, 25 December 2023 (UTC) @Firefangledfeathers. I only restored the content because the reverting user stated in his edit summary that its place implies that it serves as a rebuttal to the claim by Manasyan, but its date is wrong for it to do so. As one can see my edit summary, I put all the sources in chronological order, added date to UNHCR report, thinking that it would address his concerns. But when the same user removed the content second time, this time saying nothing about placement, but claiming that it was generally "dated" [19], I continued the discussion at talk. The only reason that I restored the UNHCR was that I thought that the objections could be addressed by sorting information according to their dates. I always try to resolve disputes in accordance to the rules, and it was me who started the RFC, and I've been considering another RFC on the same issue, and sought an advice from Callanecc [20]. I was just unsure whether it was worth doing a repeated RFC on the same issue. I think we see stonewalling from KU, because first they argued that the UN was undue, when the community rejected that, he said that the UN was "dated", while there was no information from the UN or any other independent party that would supersede it. When asked which Wikipedia rule requires to use only "up to date" info, KU referred to MOS:DATED [21], which in fact is not a rule, but a guidance on how to format articles, and it says quite the opposite, that the information needs to be dated precisely. A user who's been around for 2 years should be able to understand the rules. Grandmaster 09:25, 26 December 2023 (UTC) Statement by HistoryofIran
Clerk work (Aredoros87)
Result concerning Aredoros87
I've created this subsection so we can keep track of how we're closing this. I know it's not required but hopefully others find it useful. Admins feel free to add your username or other proposals. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:16, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
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שמי (2023)
Blocked for one week by ScottishFinnishRadish. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:09, 25 December 2023 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning שמי (2023)
All of these are WP:ARBECR violations.
This user has never responded on its talk page, nor reacted to having edits reverted on ARBPIA grounds. Whether that indicates blissful ignorance or wilful ignorance, I don't care to guess.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:שמי_(2023)&diff=prev&oldid=1191418762> Discussion concerning שמי (2023)Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by שמי (2023)Statement by (username)Result concerning שמי (2023)
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Rsk6400
Rsk6400 and Crash48 topic banned from Ukrainian language for 12 months. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:59, 29 December 2023 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Rsk6400
See WP:DRN#Ukrainian language for the DR which is now closed as failed. Earlier, on 20 September 2023, Rsk6400 stated that the reason why he reverted my addition was "because it was without context". Then, on 22 September 2023, Rsk6400 added a "context" to the article to his satisfaction; but he insists on reverting my addition even though the "context" he had required is now present. The example when Regarding the accusations of me edit warring: WP:DRNC#How to respond to a "no consensus" edit summary advises, upon not receiving any response on the talk page from the revertor within a few days, to reapply the change, prior to taking the dispute to other forums. This is the recommended course of action that I followed, unlike Rsk6400 none of whose reverts was preceded with an attempt to discuss the content that he disputes. @Mzajac: indeed, about a half dozen editors alleged that my proposed additions are WP:SYNTH. Each one of these editors refused to substantiate their allegations. The multitude of stonewalling editors expressing baseless allegations should not be mistaken for a consensus.
Discussion concerning Rsk6400Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Rsk6400The issue was discussed at
Re "Stonewall" 3: The moderator misunderstood my point, which was "The claim ... is not really supported by the source." (From the diff given by Crash48) Re "Filibuster" 2: When I stated my willingness to improve the draft, there were three editors in the discussion. I was hoping that the third editor would provide a sensible draft, but they withdrew from the discussion. I'll gladly answer to the other points if an admin has any questions. Please note that Crash48 says that I "feigned willingness" (against AGF) and that they continued edit warring at Ukrainian language after they accepted the rules of the moderated discussion. I'll provide the diffs as soon as I can, but please excuse me for now because of Christmas celebrations (Happy Xmas to all who celebrate that feast !) Rsk6400 (talk) 15:48, 24 December 2023 (UTC) Please note that I informed the third party of the DNR of this discussion[33]. Replying to Robert McClenon's statement: It's not true that I "wanted to roll back the article to a stable version". I demanded that the rule be applied according to which the mediation failed because Crash48 edited the article after having accepted the rules.[34] I also wanted that you saw that you were mistaken when saying that Crash48 made that edit "so soon after I [Robert McClenon] provided the rules."[35] It's also not true that you "had to" collapse much of the discussion. At least everything that I said was said for procedural reasons. The extracts from the discussion (8th to 10th statements) which you presented here are arbitrarily chosen. Of course, I said that "most" was original synthesis. But the most important claim was "not really supported by the source." I'm really at a loss how you could misunderstand me so often and so deeply. I reject your final statement that it was me who "made reasoned discussion impossible." Rsk6400 (talk) 19:40, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by Robert McClenonI was the moderator at DRN of the dispute over the content of the Ukrainian language article. When I begin mediation of a content dispute about a contentious topic, I instruct the principals to acknowledge that they are aware that the topic is contentious. Some topics are subject to battleground editing because they have historically been real battlegrounds. Ukraine is in Eastern Europe, which is where World War Two began. It is also the location of the bloodiest war of the twenty-first century. This was a difficult mediation. Both Crash48 and Rsk6400 had to be warned. I had to collapse back-and-forth discussion. Rsk6400 wanted to roll back the article to a stable version, which I did not do, because my objective is to improve the article going forward rather than to go back. Rsk6400 wanted me to fail the mediation because Crash64 had edited the article after I had said not to edit the article. I could have failed the mediation at this point, but chose not to do so, because I was trying at least to get the parties to agree as to what they disagreed about. Things got worse on 20 December, when I tried to explain what I saw as the situation. I thought that I was quoting Rsk6400, and they denied having said that there was original synthesis from primary sources. This appears to be an attempt to gaslight the moderator. I failed the moderation when I thought that I was being gaslighted. In Rsk6400's Eighth Statement, they wrote:So in my Tenth Statement, I wrote: Then in Rsk6400's Tenth Statement, they wrote:
Maybe they aren't trying to confuse the moderator, which may be like trying to confuse a jury, but the effect is that they made reasoned discussion impossible. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:24, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by ManyareasexpertGreetings, just a small comment regarding "Most of it is original synthesis of primary sources" and "is not really supported by the source" to @Robert McClenon 's attention. Both can be true, the section of the text could be "original synthesis" mostly, and the particular sentence out of it may "not really be supported by the source". Indeed, if we look at the text Draft:Ukrainian language/Names/Crash48, it has an extensive collection of facts (primary sources) of how Ukrainian was named Little Russian and Ruthenian (confirming synthesis), and the best I can find confirming "[before mid-19th century] the language was usually named Ruthenian or Little Russian" at the source given [36] is ... the “Little Russian” language (the term used for Ukrainian in the Russian Empire)... and ... It was during this period that elites on both sides of the border began to apply the term Ukrainian to the varieties formerly called Ruthenian and Little Russian., and @Rsk6400 may hold the opinion that The source only makes the corresponding statement in a specific context, i.e. to specify the language it is talking about Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Eighth statements by editors (Ukrainian language) . Manyareasexpert (talk) 09:52, 25 December 2023 (UTC) Statement by MzajacCrash48’s proposed edits to the article have been extensively argued in multiple discussions as noted above by about a half dozen editors, including myself. They do not have consensus. They are not getting any closer to consensus. Kudos to Rsk6400 for being the only one with the patience to continue engaging tirelessly with Crash48. They don’t deserve to be singled out and accused of obstruction, because they are not the only one opposed. This is getting nowhere. It seems disruptive. It should end. The proposed changes shouldn’t be made without consensus, so maybe the best action is to declare a moratorium for a cooldown period while everyone involved continues with productive editing on other articles. —Michael Z. 03:07, 27 December 2023 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Rsk6400
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2603:6011:4902:a77f:e410:75e4:4408:ca95
IP blocked for 72 hours by Isabelle Belato. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:38, 27 December 2023 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning 2603:6011:4902:a77f:e410:75e4:4408:ca95
All of these are editing in I-P without extended confirmed permissions, made after the notification on their talk page.
I think it's possible that the IP just doesn't know what a talk page or edit history is, but I'm not sure how to get through to them.
Discussion concerning 2603:6011:4902:a77f:e410:75e4:4408:ca95Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by 2603:6011:4902:a77f:e410:75e4:4408:ca95Statement by (username)Result concerning 2603:6011:4902:a77f:e410:75e4:4408:ca95
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Nableezy
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – 20:35, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- 90 day topic ban
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- Notified
Statement by Nableezy
I was warned for this response to another editor on 01:22, 25 December 2023, a response that had already been modified prior to any warning for that matter (23:55, 24 December 2023). I was then topic banned with the diffs supporting the ban 12:27, 24 December 2023 (pre warning, though also cautioned about that edit on 13:37, 24 December 2023), this revert and edit summary, apparently for calling the grammar "trash", a response on my talk page about that edit (2023-12-25 22:14:30), and my participation at an AN thread. SFR has said these demonstrate a pattern of battleground editing, but I dont see how. He has also said that The individual interactions are not enough, in and of themselves, to sanction, e.g. your needlessly inflammatory edit summary (which should have been the first diff, not a repeat of the discussion on your talk page) which you tacitly admitted was unduly harsh. The problem is that it has remained a common occurrence after warnings.
But the only thing that has been shown post warning is the AN thread and the revert/response on my talk page, all the other diffs pre-date that warning. And regarding the AN thread, in which I said that an editor calling a clearly good faith editor NOTHERE was uncivil and I criticized an editor attempting to overstate the level of consensus for sanctions, my views were basically accepted by an uninvolved admin (here) and another editor was convinced by my argument to adjust their previous position (here). I dont see how politely engaging in the substance of arguments on AN is "battleground mentality". I can admit that the 12:27, 24 December 2023 edit was SOAP in response to SOAP and I need to not do that, but it has not re-occurred since any warning. As far as the edit summary, I was unaware we may not criticize edits. The sentence was in fact poorly written, and I dont think it merits a topic ban to say that in an edit summary. We arent editing a fourth grade play here, this is supposedly an encyclopedia written in English, and criticism of poor English being placed in the leads of highly visible articles is not, in my view, any type of offense at all, much less evidence of "battleground behaviour" that merits a topic ban. SFR's claim that my supposed problematic behavior remained a common occurrence after warnings
is unsubstantiated in my view. He has said he cautioned me to stop arguing with Andrevan, but I had no interaction ban and I do not know how to respond to people making arguments that I feel are misrepresenting both the sources and our policies without saying so. But given SFR's own admission that none of the edits merit sanctioning, and the fact that they all, excepting the edit summary calling poor grammar "trash" and the AN thread, pre-date any warning, I dont see how this ban is justified on the merits and I request it be vacated.
- There are now several more diffs supposedly substantiating "veiled or not so veiled commentary on other editors' motives". Makes no mention of any motives, is a response to somebody citing NOTNEWS in a deletion discussion, which applies to routine announcements, is a remark on the systemic bias of covering all acts of Palestinian violence while not covering Israeli violence, is another remark on the systemic bias of requiring murder convictions to call the purposeful killing of a human a murder when the circumstances dictate that will never happen. None of those are about another editors motives. The last diff was a result of my misreading the prior comment, I read it as claiming that the IDF had not killed these three people, and I apologized immediately upon recognizing my error. And none of those demonstrate any ongoing issue post warning, being that they all came prior to the warning. Also, I dont think its really fair to after imposing a ban and having it appealed to then tack on other supposed issues. I would have addressed those in my initial statement if I had been aware they were considered in the original ban. nableezy - 21:51, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
- I can only answer for the diffs I’ve been given and I don’t think you have substantiated any disruptive pattern, and certainly not after your warning. nableezy - 22:42, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
- Would also request topic ban violations be enforced here. nableezy - 23:02, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
- SFR no it’s an indication that I misread and that when I realized my error I recognized my mistake. We don’t typically hold against editors mistakes they make that they sincerely apologize for, without prompting by an admin I’d add. nableezy - 23:25, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
- If there is anything in the involved editor section that needs to be responded to please let me know, and editors should know well enough to know when they are involved or uninvolved. But I have absolutely substantiated each of my claims about other edits that are being raised here. nableezy - 16:55, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
- Galobtter I agree that Ive been more frustrated and harsher than I should be, and I have been trying to moderate that, and I agree with Harry's advice, and hell I agree with SFR's advice too. I understand the cause of the ban, but I dont think that if a warning is given for past behavior and I havent done anything since that warning to indicate that I am continuing with that behavior that a ban is merited. I was warned on December 25th and banned on December 26th. I cannot see how any of my contributions in those intervening 39 hours were indicative of a battleground mentality or poor civility or really anything else to object to. I am trying to rein in my frustration here. But for the record, I called the grammar of that edit trash. The reason I removed it instead of fixing the grammar though was that it was the subject of an ongoing RFC. And I dont know why calling poor grammar poor is a problem for an English encyclopedia editor. But I *did* recognize that it was harsh, my response to Elad on my talk page was
Which part? The grammar is garbage part? Sorry, Ill try to be less harsh, but Elad you are editing the lead of an English language encyclopedia article. You have to do it with better English. If you cant then suggest an edit on the talk page and let somebody with better command of English grammar make the edit.
Do I think that a harsh edit summary merits a sanction? No, especially when it, even if harsh, is true. nableezy - 17:37, 28 December 2023 (UTC) - And for the record, I will add to the chorus of praise for SFR for trying to, mostly single-handedly, manage a conflagration that is approaching Chicago in 1871 in size and intensity. And I hope he continues to do what he can, and even better that others join him. nableezy - 19:16, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
- For the record, gaslighting was in reference to sources like UN Watch, not about editors. nableezy - 20:37, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
- Isabelle, I have tried to lower the temperature, and I will continue to do so. I will redouble my efforts to not respond to soapboxing with soapboxing. But, besides for an edit summary that I already recognized as harsh, I dont know what I could have done after being warned to avoid a topic ban here. nableezy - 03:54, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish
I provided a few diffs to demonstrate the problem was recent and continuing. I have also warned multiple times, [38][39][40], including here at AE [41]. A warning also does not cancel out any prior issues, and I was placing warnings for behavior in real time while reviewing a vast corpus of discussions.
I have been asked by several editors in the area to just read the talk pages, and it will become clear where the problems lie. I have spent an enormous amount of time reading dozens of talk pages with what likely totaled a few hundred thousand words. What I determined is that there is persistent battleground behavior by many editors, and I acted to remove some of the worst actors temporarily, and one flagrantly disruptive one indefinitely. I don't have a large book of diffs because battleground behavior is a pattern, not single diffable. I was also reading many discussions, many of them weeks old, mostly on my phone. Looking up each diff of battleground conduct, incivility, unnecessary escalation, hostility, and extended unonstructive back and forths with the find addition/removal tool, or by trolling through histories of talk pages with thousands of edits was simply not feasible.
There are many examples going back of the disruptive behavior. Much of it, as I explained to Nableezy, would not be worth a sanction, or sometimes even a warning. Taken as a whole it demonstrates disruptive editing in the topic, hostile or dismissive responses towards those with a different POV on events or sources, and frequent veiled or not so veiled commentary on other editors' motives. [42][43][44][45][46] (This last was apologized for, but look at the tone even in a misunderstanding). They also recognize this behavior in others [47]. They have had to deal with a lot of bullshit, yes, but so has everyone in the topic area. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:37, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
- Nableezy, I sanctioned you for a pattern of editing which I believe I explained at your talk page where I said
The issue is with the consistent pattern of your editing, rather than any single specific diff. I included the diffs to show some recent behavior, but there have been dozens of instances of your behavior demonstrating a battleground mentality, an inability to keep calm in the topic area, and lashing out at other editors.
andI didn't topic ban you for a single edit summary, I topic banned you for a pattern of behavior.
A pattern of behavior is more than four diffs, and the pattern goes back for weeks, before and after the numerous warnings I gave. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:37, 27 December 2023 (UTC) - And yes, you did apologize for [48], as I noted, but your first response demonstrates how you've been reacting to other editors. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:44, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
- I'm already nearly at, or past, 500 words so I'll try to keep this short. I don't believe the four warnings I gave each provided a blanket pardon for any prior misbehavior across the topic. I gave warnings for behavior I saw as it happened, but the topic ban was based on the totality of the discussions I reviewed.Several editors have provided more diffs, and one has said that
Nableezy's behavior convinced me not to edit the most contentious pages in this subject area
. That I warned for other disruptive editing does not make the other behavior no longer disruptive. Except for the indef topic ban of Iennes all of the topic bans were based on the same long-term consideration.If consideration of long-term patterns of editing isn't the place of an admin patrolling a CTOP, that's fine and I'll keep that in mind for the future. However, I see the point of CTOP designation is to allow uninvolved admins to step in to stop disruption that is demonstrably preventing other editors from even taking part. I'm now way over 500 words so I'll leave this to others unless any of the considering admins have have any questions or require clarification. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:17, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by Coretheapple
I generally edit on popular culture nowadays. I started editing I/P about two weeks ago and found the atmosphere to be poisonous. I commend ScottishFinnishRadish for doing the hard work required to improve civility on that page.
When I began editing 2023 Israel-Hamas War, I made this comment on the talk page concerning an overlong paragraph: Perhaps what is being conveyed here can be described succinctly rather than reeling off what one media outlet after another said on this subject. The paragraph in question is overlong and disproportionate weight.
Nableezy responded [49]. Guess it was the right amount of weight when it pushed the lie hundreds of Hamas militants have surrendered to Israel ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. II was new to the page, had never interacted with this editor before. I had never edited that paragraph before. I had never "pushed the lie" to which he referred. This was not "exasperation." He was questioning my motives.
Nor was it an expression of "exasperation" when he accused me of being a hypocrite. Such personal attacks are no longer prevalent on that talk page entirely due to ScottishFinnishRadish and him alone. Coretheapple (talk) 23:26, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
- It occurs to me that I have not directly addressed the topic ban. I agree with it. I believe that three months is not excessive and that a permanent Tban would not be unreasonable. The following statement appears on his user page as a userbox.
This user supports the right of all individuals and groups to violently resist military aggression and occupation by other parties, but due to an alleged consensus he is disallowed from naming particular individuals or groups which certain administrators find to be unacceptable.
- He also has a section on his user page called "Trip down memory lane," which further speaks to the battlefield behavior noted in the diffs. Coretheapple (talk) 17:28, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
- Re the points raised by Novem Linguae and SFR, I wanted to clarify one point. If you check my contribs you can see that I have largely gone back to popular culture in the hope that things will cool off a bit, and they have not. The I/P subject area is pretty much hopeless in my view. It is not unusual, for instance, for editors to refer to Israel as the "Zionist entity" in talk page discussions, which is the kind of thing that poisons the atmosphere as well as potentially bringing the project into disrepute if not curbed. SFR's tough enforcement of civility (and he has addressed the "Zionist entity" issue) should be supported and not undermined if WP:NPA is to be more than a rumor in I/P. Coretheapple (talk) 22:33, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by Homerethegreat
Since I begun interacting with Nableezy I've felt a lack of understanding and respect and at times what has felt very clearly as complete lack of civility. Nableezy accused me of tag teaming [[50]] without presenting evidence. I once wrote to Nableezy stating that I thought he/she/they had done a false edit summary and Nableezy responded with what really felt like a series of personal attacks [[51]]. Nableezy said the following:
"You have, consistently across a range of pages, attempted to skew the leads of articles by adding whatever bullshit you can Google up and stuff it in to the lead without a thought as to weight or how poorly you make the lead read. "
He also said this:
" your complaint here is as low quality as most of your edits. "
Nableezy's inability to explain without using derogative terms and his negative style alarmed me.
In another edit the user said the following[[52]]:
"...Both are accused of ongoing war crimes whereas France and those other countries you keep pretending like this compares to is not. Sorry, but no I do not need to accept your chosen framing in which you can fill the lead of Hamas with all sorts of hysteria..."
From this and other edits arouse the feeling of the inability for I and other users that do not think the same as Nableezy to cooperate since Nableezy's communications were negative in their style and tone were derogatory.
I have also seen Nableezy react in a way that can be insulting and also shows behavior that seems unaccepting and seems to show a mentality that does not accept cooperating with users that think differently (in his responses to BilledMammal)[[53]].
"So you’re saying the UN secretary general said there is no bias? Cool cool. The section you linked to is filled with garbage sources like UN Watch, and you want to pretend like it should be treated as objective fact. Again, gaslighting, the abuser claims to be the victim to make you disbelieve anything said against them. Next you’ll tell me Btselem is antisemitic too."
"The only people claiming a bias against Israel are highly partisan sources. It is gaslighting, an attempt to shield criticism by claiming to be the victim"
I've also seen Nableezy interact with other users in a way which is at minimum disrespectful.
Overall from very early on I have felt insulted and attacked by Nableezy at times resulting in a personal attack on me as a person. Over time this behavior seems to have worsened. There's no doubt Nableezy is a significant contributor to Wikipedia and has spent extraordinary amounts of time working on the encyclopedia. Perhaps it is really best for a 3 month cooling period so that the user can contribute with freshened mentality and politeness. Homerethegreat (talk) 16:30, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by Eladkarmel
I have known Nableezy for several years now. There is no doubt that this is an editor who invested a lot of effort and time in Wikipedia and has good contributions, but I also saw that this is a person who knows how to get stressed and behave aggressively towards other editors. I think his assault on Dovidroth was really the straw that broke the camel's back. I have also seen the attacks on Homerethegreat and BilledMammal and I think this is also very, very problematic behavior and not what I would expect from other editors. I'm sorry that such a long-time editor behaves like this. I hope that a certain period of editing on other topics will help him calm down and also remember that in the end, real life is just as beautiful as Wikipedia. Eladkarmel (talk) 18:44, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by Kire1975
There is evidence of tag teaming, edit warring, WP:HOSTAGE taking and WP:SEALIONING by Homerethegreat. There are already two discussions about this subject open on the ANI noticeboard here and the NPOV noticeboard here. Kire1975 (talk) 18:20, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by Zero0000
Anyone who is not upset by the current war in the Middle East has a heart of stone. It is simply not humanly possible to cover it on wikipedia without a lot of argument, pushing of competing narratives, and occasional incivility. Instead of punishing editors who use a rude word now and then, we should acknowledge editors who honestly strive to maintain a high article standard. Nableezy is one of the leading lights in that respect, in line with his long eminent career here. Concerning his recent behavior, I refer to Levivich's answer with which I concur: between the warning and the TBAN, Nableezy's behavior was exemplary and there was no cause to escalate the warning to a TBAN. Zerotalk 02:19, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 2)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Nableezy
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Drmies
I don't wish to speak/act like an administrator here, but I do have two cents' worth. First, I understand SFR's verdict, but second, I believe that Nableezy was by no means the worst in these exchanges, and their tone was more of exasperation than of a battleground mentality. Both sides were not totally equal here, and I think the project would benefit from having Nableezy back in the game. It would be very nice if we had more uninvolved editors and admins active in these areas who could speak words of warning before things get out of hand between editors. Drmies (talk) 22:48, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by Volunteer Marek
Ah yes. “pattern of editing”. It’s one of those amorphous, ethereal, vague pretexts that are actually an admission of “I don’t really have any real diffs but I need to manufacture a reason here”. Especially when the diffs that are provided are such weak milquetoast as this. Some people see patterns - dragons, turtles, Jesus himself - in the clouds, others just see white fluff. Usually the “white fluff” people are right.
The above applies to not just Nableezy but a few others that caught a sanction here. All of these, with one possible exception, should be rescinded. Volunteer Marek 23:46, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by Sluzzelin
I wouldn't word it the way Volunteer Marek did, and I don't think ScottishFinnishRadish is seeing Jesus in the clouds ... yet I agree with Volunteer Marek that these topic bans should be rescinded. Everyone's exasperated regarding the war, and it's impossible not to feel exasperated when reading the talk pages of most articles about the war. These are editors, however, who do try very hard to follow reliable sources, policies, and to avoid personalizing their comments or making forum-type contributions. I think en.wp needs to endure the possibility of occasional over-the-top escalations in this heated area, and manage them case by case. I certainly find the duration of the topic bans far too long. In my view, there also appears to be an intention of even-handedness in the making of these bans, and therefore I ask for all of them to be cancelled. Peace. ---Sluzzelin talk 00:19, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by Objective3000
AMPOL is a picnic on a perfect, spring day compared to A-I. Nableezy has 52,000 edits, many in CTOP areas, without a block in a dozen years. It’s difficult to see a recurring pattern here. The constant influx of POV editors, many SPA, in the most C of CTOPs is going to result in moments of exasperation. From a purely technical POV, I don’t think SFR was out of line and I am delighted that some admins spend some time where angels fear to tread. But Nableezy is not the cause of the problems in A-I and his presence is valuable in keeping these articles within the boundaries of Wikipedia guidelines. This will always ruffle feathers as many editors in such topics put their personal beliefs over our guidelines. Nableezy’s responses here may sound defensive and defensive sounding appeals don’t go over well on this page. But I would sound defensive in this case also. In my mind, the best result is quick termination of the sanction. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:02, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
- Besides the religious aspect, the likely difference between discussions in AMPOL and A-I is that people are dying on a daily basis, right now. Possibly hourly if you count deaths from injuries, illness, and starvation. Far higher rate than the barbaric war in Ukraine. In that atmosphere of immediacy, statements that may normally seem appropriate may appear as insensitive and draw intemperate responses. This is more likely to happen to someone who makes a large numbers of edits, some repetitive, like Homerethegreat’s 408 mainspace and 436 talk page edits related to this subject. To some extent we will have to live with this if we are to support current events articles. Perhaps it would be better if we handed out more 48 hour TBans and fewer 90 day TBans. Of course the number 48 could grow. O3000, Ret. (talk) 18:22, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by My very best wishes
Nableezy is a reasonable contributor capable of admitting their mistakes, even though my interactions with him were unpleasant [54]. I should admit such interactions convinced me not to edit the most contentious pages in this subject area, such as 2023 Israel–Hamas war. My very best wishes (talk) 17:10, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by Levivich
I read all 28, and 27 of them are 100% unproblematic in my view. The only one that is a little bit problematic is this edit summary, which in full is: there is an ongoing rfc about this, and youre putting contested claims in the narrative voice and the grammar is trash
. Arguably, "grammar is trash" is not as nice as we want people to be. I'd suggest euphemisms, such as poor
instead of trash
, e.g.: poor grammar
, poor edits
, those poor editors
, Levivich is a poor person
.
The TBAN notification (linked above) cited three post-warning edits: 22:14, 25 December 2023 (in which Nableezy apologizes for the "grammar is trash" comment Sorry, Ill try to be less harsh ...
), 22:18, 25 December 2023, and 22:24, December 25, 2023; I don't see a problem with any of these three edits, and one of them shows Nableezy rectifying the only one edit out of the 28 that I think is not 100% unproblematic.
I do not see any grounds for a TBAN in these 28 post-warning edits. If anything, the edits show that Nableezy heeded the warning; the one time he said something slightly unkind, he later apologized for it. The other 27 edits are Nableezy civilly and productively discussing content and policy issues in this topic area. I would go so far as to say that 27 out of the 28 edits show model behavior. The warning worked, so the TBAN is unnecessary to prevent disruption, and not having Nableezy edit in the topic area will make the topic area worse, not better. The TBAN should be overturned. Levivich (talk) 18:22, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by Mistamystery (in response to Kire1975)
Sorry - what does this have to do with Nableezy? I see that you yourself initiated one of the discussions you link to above. It appears you are only commenting on this page because @Homerethegreat commented here and you followed his edits - not because of the arbitration action at hand. Please take care not to engage in actions that may be perceived as WP:HOUNDING, WP:CANVASS, and WP:INAPPNOTE.
Unless you have edits to make to your comment that are directly in regard to nableezy's appeal (or any of the other editors involved in the recent topic ban - of which the user you are referring to is not one of them), I respectfully recommend striking through or removing your above comment. Mistamystery (talk) 00:09, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)
Result of the appeal by Nableezy
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- This sanction is unfortunate - because in general I feel like Nableezy is one of the editors in the area to most often to bring good sources to the table and make policy based arguments. But there are also a lot of hostile comments lately, so I understand why SFR imposed the topic ban. I'm open to shortening the topic ban or lifting it, but I'm concerned by the lack of recognition of Nableezy of any problems in their comments and editing (and e.g. even doubling down on the calling an edit "trash" comment). I think if Nableezy can take HJ Mitchell's advice in this comment that'd be good. Galobtter (talk) 17:27, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
- I really don't see why it's ever necessary to call someone's work "trash". Even if the edit was made in bad faith there are still better ways of phrasing criticism. That said, Nableezy has attempted to heal the hurt feelings, which should be taken into account here. I agree with the above comments that Nableezy is one of the more reasonable editors in this topic area, and removing them entirely would have a negative effect on content. But we do need Nableezy, and all the other good-faith editors, to do their part to lower the temperature whenever possible. It is also clear that we need more uninvolved editors and admins in this topic area. SFR has been doing incredible work, often alone, and I admire their patience and fortitude. I can certainly understand why they issued this sanction, but I would also like to see if repealed. – bradv 18:34, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
- While I might not have issued the exact lengths of this TB, I am not going to second guess the admin who is striving to enforce some semblance of proper behavior. I do understand that passions are running high in the topic area and I understand why, but that doesn't mean that we should let things get worse in the editing area. Thank you to SFR for being willing to step in and I don't see a need to overturn the TB. Ealdgyth (talk) 19:33, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
- I see multiple diffs of an abrasive tone being used by this editor. It is not very collegial to communicate using words such as "trash", "garbage", "gaslighting", and "bullshit". This kind of tone is probably intended to drive "bad" editors away, but probably also drives good editors away, and is probably the kind of thing SFR is trying to fix in this topic area. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:29, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
- Re: "gaslighting". Sure, it was about a source rather than an editor, but it may still be a good idea to avoid it. Certain words raise the temperature. –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:07, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Volunteer Marek: Please be mindful that decorum is one of the expectations in pages such as AE. Isabelle Belato 🏳🌈 01:04, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
- To comment on the issue at hand, I agree with others who said above that Nableezy is a net positive to the project and to the contentious topic areas they edit. This does not give them carte blanche to be belligerent towards other editors, raising the temperature of an already hot topic and creating an unwelcoming ambient for new editors. While I think the tban was justified, I wouldn't mind reducing its length if Nableezy can show they understand their behavior was not up to the standards we expect from editors in contentious topics. Isabelle Belato 🏳🌈 02:22, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Isabelle Belato, I think you are missing a "not". – bradv 03:14, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
- To comment on the issue at hand, I agree with others who said above that Nableezy is a net positive to the project and to the contentious topic areas they edit. This does not give them carte blanche to be belligerent towards other editors, raising the temperature of an already hot topic and creating an unwelcoming ambient for new editors. While I think the tban was justified, I wouldn't mind reducing its length if Nableezy can show they understand their behavior was not up to the standards we expect from editors in contentious topics. Isabelle Belato 🏳🌈 02:22, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Iennes
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Iennes (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Iennes (talk) 06:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- Indefinite Topic Ban from ARBPIA
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- Notified
Statement by Iennes
No "final warning" message had been sent to me before the call. On December 25, after realizing that the number of Palestinian casualties was obsolete (18,600 instead of 20,000) in the lead of an article, I tried to correct it and soon realized it was impossible to edit in the actual article as some people had decided to create a template [55] to control that information and let it on December 20. So I wrote this message on the talk page to let them know that they not only abused of their editing skill but it was made on purpose to delay any update.[56]. The template was only updated on December 26, this very slow reaction in editing the right number of casualties is not at the level of wiki.[57] I was about to tone down the message the day after but the sanction had already arrived.
One week before on December 14, I wrote messages on this article talk page [58] and then got messages from SFR on my talk page.[59] The reply I had written to SFR on my talk page [60] had been instantly erased a few minutes right after,[61] so it was supposed to not be read anymore and yet SFR dug it the day after [62], to use it in the sanction report. The right to oblivion for a personal message on a personal page exists. it is unfair and unreceivable to mention his reply to this as soon withdrawn message in his present sanction, this is a convenient help to reach the three mistakes.
Directly giving an endless ban sanction is inappropriate, it has to be graduated. I am engaging myself here to comment on content and only on content from now on, and not write comments on users in any case anymore. I didn't disorganize wiki, I edited / added content with good quality sources in those articles.[63] [64]. So I would like to see this sanction reduced.
- note: I only learnt that it was due to a template the day after when someone explained it on the talk page of the article.[65] Iennes (talk) 06:50, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish
Statement by (involved editor 1)
Statement by (involved editor 2)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Iennes
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)
I agree with Galobtter. Throwing around accusations over something like this doesn't really appear good for you since the sanction was based on WP:BATTLEGROUND. Also since when is making a template a tactic to delay an update to an article? and even so, Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS. To say a single out of date figure is "not up to the level of wiki" makes no sense to me and to accuse the template creators of deliberately trying to prevent you from making an edit makes me believe the sanction imposed by SFR was warranted especially after browsing through your recent contribution history. Philipnelson99 (talk) 07:00, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)
Result of the appeal by Iennes
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- You know you could've just edited the template at Template:2023 Israel–Hamas war casualties instead of accusing people of censorship? Doubling down on your WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality in your appeal isn't helping your case. Looking at your overall the editing in the area the number of battlegroundy accusations is enough to make me think this tban is warranted. Galobtter (talk) 06:42, 29 December 2023 (UTC)