Talk:COVID-19 pandemic

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Current consensus

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01. Superseded by #6

The first few sentences of the lead's second paragraph should state The virus is typically spread during close contact and via respiratory droplets produced when people cough or sneeze. Respiratory droplets may be produced during breathing but the virus is not considered airborne. It may also spread when one touches a contaminated surface and then their face. It is most contagious when people are symptomatic, although spread may be possible before symptoms appear. (RfC March 2020)

02. The infobox should feature a per capita count map most prominently, and a total count by country map secondarily. (RfC March 2020)

03. Do not include a sentence in the lead section noting comparisons to World War II. (March 2020)

04. Include subsections covering the domestic responses of Italy, China, Iran, the United States, and South Korea. Do not include individual subsections for France, Germany, the Netherlands, Australia and Japan. (RfC March 2020) Include a short subsection on Sweden focusing on the policy controversy. (May 2020)

05. Superseded by #13

The clause on xenophobia in the lead section should read ...and there have been incidents of xenophobia and discrimination against Chinese people and against those perceived as being Chinese or as being from areas with high infection rates. (RfC April 2020)

06. Cancelled

Supersedes #1. The first several sentences of the lead section's second paragraph should state The virus is mainly spread during close contact and by small droplets produced when those infected cough, sneeze or talk. These droplets may also be produced during breathing; however, they rapidly fall to the ground or surfaces and are not generally spread through the air over large distances. People may also become infected by touching a contaminated surface and then their face. The virus can survive on surfaces for up to 72 hours. Coronavirus is most contagious during the first three days after onset of symptoms, although spread may be possible before symptoms appear and in later stages of the disease. (April 2020)

Notes

On 17:16, 6 April 2020, these first several sentences were replaced with an extracted fragment from the coronavirus disease 2019 article, which at the time was last edited at 17:11.

07. The article title is COVID-19 pandemic. The title of related pages should follow this scheme as well. (RM April 2020, RM August 2020)

08. The lead section should use Wuhan, China to describe the virus's origin, without mentioning Hubei or otherwise further describing Wuhan. (April 2020)

09. The lead section's second sentence should be phrased using the words first identified and December 2019. (May 2020)

010. Superseded by #12

File:President Donald Trump suggests measures to treat COVID-19 during Coronavirus Task Force press briefing.webm should be used as the visual element of the misinformation section, with the caption U.S. president Donald Trump suggested at a press briefing on 23 April that disinfectant injections or exposure to ultraviolet light might help treat COVID-19. There is no evidence that either could be a viable method. (1:05 min) (May 2020, June 2020)

011. Superseded by #16

Do not mention the theory that the virus was accidentally leaked from a laboratory in the article. (RfC May 2020)

012. Supersedes #10. File:President Donald Trump suggests measures to treat COVID-19 during Coronavirus Task Force press briefing.webm should not be used as the visual element of the misinformation section. (RfC November 2020)

013. Supersedes #5. Incidents of xenophobia and discrimination are considered WP:UNDUE for a full sentence in the lead. (RfC January 2021)

014. Only include one photograph in the infobox. There is no consensus that File:COVID-19 Nurse (cropped).jpg should be that one photograph. (May 2021)

015. The first sentence is The COVID-19 pandemic, also known as the coronavirus pandemic, is a global pandemic of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). (August 2021) Although the word ongoing was removed in May 2023, the word is should be retained. (RfC October 2023)

016. Supersedes #11. There is consensus that there is no consensus to include or exclude the lab leak theory. (May 2024)

RfC: Misinformation visual

What visual element should be used for the information dissemination section (which consists primarily of the misinformation subsection) for this article?

Option 1

• Option 1 (status quo): The video (right) of Donald Trump suggesting that disinfectant injections or exposure to ultraviolet light might help treat COVID-19, with the caption (previously affirmed as consensus) U.S. president Donald Trump suggested at a press briefing on 23 April that disinfectant injections or exposure to ultraviolet light might help treat COVID-19. There is no evidence that either could be a viable method. (1:05 min)
• Option 2: Some other photo or video, or combination of photos/videos (previous options discussed here and elsewhere)
• Option 3: Have no visual element for the section

References

{{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 17:02, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Survey

• Option 1. The Trump press conference is a clear example of misinformation, despite the protestations of POV-pushers who have been campaigning to remove it ever since it was added by consensus. Trump is certainly not the only leader who has been spreading misinformation, but when we considered a variety of visuals options a month and a half ago, none of the proposed alternatives were nearly as good. Given Trump's prominence on the world stage, using this video seems perfectly suitable. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 17:02, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

  One other note: I am very much saddened that, despite two previous well-attended discussions, we are having to devote yet more energy to this matter, rather than being able to spend it on the more general improvement/maintenance of an article who's overall quality is literally a matter of life or death. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 17:02, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

• Option 3. Strong Oppose to any visual element. Continually reopening this topic only leads to more argument and disagreement. I don't think a visual aid is necessary for the misinformation section. The Trump clip adds no significant value nor great gains in understanding the misinformation issue with COVID 19 and simply works to polarize the article further, and open it to (unsubstantiated) claims of a political agenda, or feed conspiracy theorists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Porcelain katana (talk • contribs) 18:27, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

• VETO again, Sdkb is manipulating the poles system again to create a false range of option with no respect or effort to listen to others comments. Here is my opinion again, I don't mind the picture as long as the comment depict the situation correctly. Trump was suggesting more researches, not immediate use for Americans. The media DID reported that he directly suggested the usage of disinfectant and I'd be fine with that statement. IF and only IF we can't reach a consensus for the caption, i'm fine with ending the drama with option 3, this picture is not crucial. Iluvalar (talk) 18:38, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

  See my reply to Hzh in the discussion section. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 23:38, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

  And see my reply there as well. Barkeep49 (talk) 04:41, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1. I'm glad the RfC bot is working and a handful non-involved editors can weigh in.

However, this video might be better. ;) It has WP:RS [2][3]. --David Tornheim (talk) 22:00, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

• Option 2, Pinocchio, seen here being iconic and not a real boy. We can rake him over the coals, not a shred of BLP guilt, even subconsciously. Barring that, nothing, use your words. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:01, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1 per nom and previous discussions. -sche (talk) 03:10, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
• option 1 per nom--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 10:00, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

• Option 3 No visual illustration in the section given the opportunity to push a narrative that violates WP:NPOV, not to mention WP:UNDUE prominence. The image of the Iranian President there was also previously removed for this reason. Hzh (talk) 11:05, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

• Option 3. For reasons mentioned above. Tobby72 (talk) 16:44, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
• Option 3 There's so much misinformation coming from various sources that singling out the orange buffoon seems hardly appropriate; and in any case I don't think the video is a particularly good use of audio-visuals: a more appropriate take would be some proper criticism of misinformation by reputable sources, but then there's probably no such option that is copyright-eligible so... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 00:03, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

  Any visual element for any general topic is always going to "single out" the example it depicts. We don't need to declare Trump the worst misinformation spreader on the planet to use the video; all we need to establish is that he's a representative example. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:24, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Adding only a single image there does in effect declare something special about what he said, and that is UNDUE and non-neutral, especially when there is uncertainty if he had intended to be ironic. There are far worse examples of misinformation that actually killed people, for example the misinformation that drinking strong alcohol can kill the virus resulted in hundreds of deaths in Iran and other countries -[4][5][6]. You are arguing here that the quality of this article is a matter of life and death, but strangely removed that misinformation had actually killed people in that section [7]. Why is that? Hzh (talk) 08:46, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Nah, it has nothing to do with his claim to be ironic (I don't think any reasonable source took that one seriously, and anyway Trump is known for "revising" statements he made earlier...); it's just that I don't think it helps illustrate the topic, and anyway this particular example lasted just a few news cycles as usual before being buried by something else. I don't think videos are a good idea here. Maybe a governement poster about misinformation could do the trick (maybe something like this, but from a proper non-copyrighted source)? RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 11:04, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

• Adding on, the MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE guideline begins Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative. They are often an important illustrative aid to understanding. The Trump video clearly meets that threshold of "significant and relevant" and clearly aids in understanding by providing a representative example of a high-profile figure spreading misinformation (the text in the section, by contrast, is very generalized). {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 08:38, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

• Considering the interesting selection of options listed above (or better stated, those NOT listed above who could be), the most neutral and sensible choice appears to be no image, Option 3. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:25, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

  

  Previous visual used

  If you have a solid alternative, please give us a link to the file and make your case for it so we can consider it. If you follow the linked discussion from option 2 in the question, you'll see that the best visual we were able to find (despite a fair amount of searching) before coming across the Trump video was this photo of a building belonging to a Chinese news agency. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 08:23, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

  I did not respond to this RFC without first following the link. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:52, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

  Plenty of valid, more neutral, options were suggested in the article. Sdkb personnaly reverted several of them. I don't know why he act as if he received no suggestions. Iluvalar (talk) 19:08, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

• Option 3 The less emphasis given to any misinformation the better. People come to this article for information, not misinformation. No matter how clearly we label any bit of misinformation, someone is going to think the opposite. This is especially true when it is in the form of a video, as someone might play it, and people who aren't even reading the article could hear. Additionally, having a video is grossly WP:UNDUE. Adoring nanny (talk) 01:56, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
• Option 3 per HzH Forich (talk) 00:57, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 - it's neither the first, nor the last example, but one that has achieved worldwide well known coverage in the media. So it's a very suitable example. --Traut (talk) 06:53, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
• Option 3 for neutrality reasons. There's no need to single out Trump when many other world leaders are spreading rampant misinformation - like the Madagascar herbal cure that many African nations have ordered. And an image/video contributes absolutely nothing to the discussion and does not inform people. It will simply serve people's confirmation biases, or turn people off from reading the article, therefore preventing us from providing quality information to people. Nmurali02 (talk) 12:58, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
• Option 3 per Adoring nanny. — Tartan357  ^(Talk) 05:11, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 per Traut - Sure plenty of people have spread misinformation but Trumps misinformation has recieved worldwide attention and therefore IMHO should be the main imagery here, –Davey2010^Talk 13:46, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 as the example that has received by far the most coverage and which is therefore the most iconic. --Aquillion (talk) 04:04, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 or 2 The fact that it's so high-profile makes it useful in illustrating how pervasive misinformation about COVID-19 really is. On the other hand since Trump does this kind of stuff all the time, I might prefer something indicating the depth of impact caused by active disinformation (a burnt 5G tower, for example) rather than just the reach of misinformation. ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 12:01, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
• Option 3 no video here, as this article is already very big, and the video adds nothing extra here than a short sentence could cover. This is only a summary of the main article. On the negative side, it would be emphasizing trolling and assisting in election promotion. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 13:10, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
• Option 3, the illustrative materials are already way too America-centric. I'd suggest a Bolsonaro video but we are the English-language Wikipedia and we've ruled out a single image already. — Bilorv (talk) 23:45, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

  Bilorv, out of the roughly 36 location-specific photos currently in the article, I count 8 from the U.S. (including the Trump video). That seems fine, given that the U.S. is the country with by far the most cases. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 21:35, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

  Sdkb, thanks for the reply. I've looked at some numbers and I had underestimated just how cataclysmically bad the U.S. has been in the pandemic. I'd argue that there are other factors than number of cases and deaths—every country has changed their way of life significantly in response to the pandemic, so the U.S. doesn't have a quarter of the "things that have changed" because of the pandemic, so to speak. I guess my argument is somewhat weaker now though. — Bilorv (talk) 22:37, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

  The U.S. is only testing more. They only tested about 20% of the population. The test numbers are still ramping up at nearly 2 million per week and still 7% of the tests come positive. There is no reason to believe it is different in other countries. It's a fallacy to state that the U.S. are more hit by the virus just because they are conducting more tests. Iluvalar (talk) 00:53, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

• Option 3, if this is an article about Trump failure in propagating accurate information about the virus, then the video insertion would be suitable. However, if the article is about COVID-19 pandemic, which it is in this case, I feel that having the video is WP:UNDUE.HollerithPunchCard (talk) 06:09, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
• Option 3. For reasons mentioned above by HzH, UNDUE prominence to show just this one and NPOV as a result. That image in particular doesn’t help inform for the article topic, it distracts and incites. This isn’t supposed to be partisan advertising video space. There was and is an enormous amount of misinformation, including WHO and CCDC and so, partly the nature of changing knowledge and partly best-guess or misunderstandings or wishful thinking... explain the phenomenon and give many examples, from vitamin D to Zinc to arthritis drugs to Polio vaccine to Oxy to Camel urine to Disinfectants... but don’t give a false impression of that one case as particularly significant. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 06:27, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1, the US has been central to misinformation on the pandemic, with Trump playing a leading role, so this both gives due weight to the primary vector, and sets the historical context for developments which are still playing out. . . dave souza, talk 11:41, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1, like User:Dave souza said and I'm paraphrasing here, globally the US and especially the White House are the biggest spreaders of misinformation. Even Bolsonaro has been quoted repeating US-originated nonsense. Dutchy45 (talk) 15:58, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1, I don't think I'm merely being American-centric when I say that Trump is the world's most notable purveyor of unscientific misinformation, and it's just a question of which Trump misinformation graphic to use; the Clorox one is as good as any. —RCraig09 (talk) 19:33, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
• Option 3. I agree that this would be WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE otherwise. David A (talk) 13:06, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 The graphic appears alongside the sub-heading of "misinformation" and the caption makes two claims, that the President said that, and that there was no evidence for the claim. Neither of these two claims appear to be disputed. While the text under the "Misinformation" subheading could be better tweaked to provide context for the graphic, the graphic itself is not the issue. SiJoHaAl (talk) 05:03, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 Looking at this issue from a non-American and (at least what I would say is) a fairly unbiased perspective, I do not think that it is biased specifically against President Trump to use the visual and I think that it is important to include because, as many others have stated, the United States has been the largest purveyor of misinformation throughout the pandemic and not only was his "joking" suggestion dangerous, but people have actively been following the advice. As recently as yesterday the leader of a fake church has been selling bleach as a cure for the virus. I think that specifically highlighting this particular show of misinformation is important because it reinforces the prevalence of misinformation, and goes to show how little we actually know about the virus because, although we obviously know that ingesting bleach in any manner will not help in any way, we still have the leader of an entire nation talking about it. It also shows the impact that this pandemic is having. PunkAndromeda (talk) 12:32, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

  You are aware that some groups where using bleach before right ? And that Trump did a press conference the very next day to deny it ? "people have actively been following the advice", Do you have sources for that ? Iluvalar (talk) 16:30, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

  The CDC published a survey showing that household cleaners and disinfectants have been used dangerously through the pandemic as protection against Covid-19, though they did not explicitly tie this to President Trump. It does imply that people were using bleach before hand, and I fully accept that, but there is still the fact that New York City's poison control centre reported a spike in calls "specifically about exposure to Lysol, 10 cases specifically about bleach and 11 cases about exposures to other household cleaners" on the day after President Trump's briefing. PunkAndromeda (talk) 23:23, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

  Yes it was after the press coverage of that conference. Where many media misquoted him and amplified the misstep. Nancy Pelosi said in conference "The president is asking people to inject Lysol into their lung" for example. But nothing of this is represented in Option 1. Only misquoting him ourselves with only one side and no mention of the next day press conference. Iluvalar (talk) 01:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

  President Trump and 23 April seems an example of this, not the cause of it. To add cites and info - CDC report covers since the pandemic started circa January some people have been washing produce or gargling with bleach. See (Yahoo news, CDC). Calls to helplines also went up year-over-year -- much attributed to cleaners simply being more present recently so more incidents happen, some to people also wondering if bleach would help -- he just wasn't the only one or first one. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 18:50, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1 - Donald Trump has been the leader of deadly misinformation, disinformation, lies, and propaganda regarding Coronavirus since January 2020 and continues to this day. Trump's deadly lies about using disinfectant to combat Coronavirus caused Lysol to issue a warning "under no circumstance should our disinfectant products be administered into the human body through injection, ingestion or any other route." State's Emergency Management Agencies had to issue a warning that “under no circumstances” should any disinfectant be taken to treat the coronavirus. [8][9] The fact that manufacturers and EMA had to issue warnings to combat Trump's deadly lies, makes this very DUE; which is why Option 1 the best choice here. BetsyRMadison (talk) 11:01, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1 - Absolutely option #1 is the correct choice. Here we are in what used to be prior to this administration a world leader, and how is it that now our only claim of leadership consists of leading in the number of virus deaths, second only to Mexico? It's not that Americans are less intelligent, less caring of others, or less informed--but we are in a country where we find ourselves under the leadership of a president who is all of those things rolled into one. We have a president that claims to know more than the world's leading virus expert, our own CDC, and the world health organization, the WHO. What is sad is that when Trump says this nonsense there is a certain percent of the population that believe him no matter how outlandish his statements are. And even if he later claims he was joking, which he obviously was not, is this something to joke about? Yes, we need his exact words here and we need to see him say these words as but one example of the reason that we find that, for example, with 156 deaths in Florida on July 17 compared to 18 in France while France's population is three times that of Florida. I consider that video extremely important for this article. Gandydancer (talk) 16:53, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1 – Arguably the most powerful leader in the world pushing extremely ill-informed ideas about the coronavirus at a public briefing is a perfect example of the kind of disinformation and ignorance that shaped the response to COVID-19 crisis in the US. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:55, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1 this is essentially statusquo and has been in place for weeks or months, as far as I recall. No reason to hide the truth, and it is very well sourced. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:53, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

  This is no statuquo, i'm still here since may following the talk page every day, I'm just avoiding unnecessary edit wars. Iluvalar (talk) 03:16, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

  Status quo? Hardly. — Recent discussions: [10], [11], [12], [13], [14]. Edits: [15], [16], [17], [18], [19], [20], [21], [22]. -- Tobby72 (talk) 14:48, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

• Option 3. Strong Oppose The use of an image is a representation of this section and the content it embodies. Using an image of a polarized figure diminishes the information being disseminated throughout, and invites criticism to the neutrality of its contents.Ggehrlich (talk) 02:01, 25 July 2020 (UTC) — Ggehrlich (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Option 3. I see no need in visuals. It can be placed at the misinformation main page, not here. I feel like it contributes to nothing, as the summary does not state the name Donald Trump explicitly, yknow what I meant. I think it also gives space for future things. GeraldWL 15:11, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
• Option 3: I don't see that the visual adds anything here, and seems needlessly likely to provoke disruptive editing. Darren-M talk 19:55, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

  As I mentioned above, the main thing I think it adds per MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE is a representative example of a high-profile figure spreading misinformation (the text in the section, by contrast, is very generalized). And we can deal with disruptive editing, but behaving differently because we're afraid of it is self-censorship, which very quickly takes us down a path we want to avoid (incentivizing Trump partisans to disrupt more until we decide it's not worth the trouble to include negative information). {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 23:08, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1. The man on the figure has become an embodiment, an avatar of misinformation related to the pandemic. Everyone forget already even about his impeachment. My very best wishes (talk) 04:07, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Discussion

While there is a previous consensus on the inclusion of the picture, there is not a consensus on which caption should follow it. Benica11 (talk) 18:27, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

There was actually no consensus on the inclusion of the picture/video, which is why we have this RfC. Sdkb wrongly claimed that there was consensus on adding it after the RfC on caption and add it to the Current consensus section above. Hzh (talk) 22:06, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

• This is not the way to start a RfC. RfC needs to be neutral and brief per WP:RFCBRIEF, which this is not (particular your option 1). You claimed consensus on a previous discussion which you should not do - as someone who started the discussion, you need to wait for a non-involved editor to close that discussion, you are not at liberty to claim consensus yourself, especially when there were 7 who expressly opposed Option 1. That Option 1 by the way is about the caption of the video file, it is not about using the video as a visual element in the Misinformation section, therefore using the votes on caption to claim a consensus on using the video in the Current consensus is wrong. You have in effect made a false statement in the Current consensus section. Then you accuse those who pointed this out as POV-pushers. Given that you have started this RfC, you are also implicitly agreeing that your claim of consensus is wrong, so these so-called "POV-pushers" are right? Hzh (talk) 22:49, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

  The prior consensus to include the video was established here and solidified by its presence for over a month in this high-scrutiny article, and its inclusion was part of the current consensus list even before the discussion on the caption that affirmed the current caption. The inclusion consensus wasn't as strong as the caption consensus, which is why we're now having this RfC at your own behest. Some people complained at the caption discussion that discussing inclusion was out of scope, and now the same group is complaining here at the inclusion discussion that discussing the caption is out of scope, so sorry, I'm not going to give that weight. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 23:33, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

  Lies ! I was in "here". Also this : [23] in May 14, you cannot possibly ignore that this image is contested since the beginning. You're argument "solidified by its presence for over a month" is out of the scope of WP:FAITH. Iluvalar (talk) 00:23, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

  I have, in a role as an uninvolved administrator, struck the wording in the RfC that suggests the video is the status quo option. The May discussion which justifies its inclusion was inconclusive. Its inclusion was reverted and this inconclusive discussion was then used to justify a comment in the article text to attempt to dissuade others from removing or reverting it. It is my opinion as an uninvolved administrator that status quo would be no picture/video for the section. One is not required in this instance after all, but would be positive and appropriate if consensus can be found. Otherwise I see no issue with the framing of this RfC which does seem to present the full range of options. Barkeep49 (talk) 04:41, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

@Barkeep49: Thank you. I wonder if you can as uninvolved administrator remove or strike off item #13 in the current consensus pinned at the top. It does not make sense to have a RfC on using the video while claiming that there is already a consensus on using it (which there isn't). Sdkb added item #13 after the discussion on the caption. As mentioned in Talk:COVID-19 pandemic#Trump & Khamenei misinformation images/videos: NO consensus, there wasn't a clear consensus on the caption either. Hzh (talk) 10:54, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

• How about we delete the whole misinformation section? Seriously, the whole thing. Give people information. Don't confuse them. Adoring nanny (talk) 02:00, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

  Really Good Point the graphic doesn't seem to be the problem. The graphic is germane to the article. The misinformation section is a little odd and not that consistent with other articles I've read. I think the content is important, but can it be better incorporated into the other existing sections. There obviously has been misinformation during the pandemic, but how do other wiki articles handle misinformation? With its own section, or incorporated elsewhere in the article.... SiJoHaAl (talk) 05:09, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Also should misinformation from Governments be lumped in with misinformation from the media? Considering their widely different roles and responsibilities. Obviously no misinformation is good. But arguably Governments have a stronger obligation to present the facts. I propose that Government misinformation be incorporated into the section on national responses whereas media misinformation have a section called "Media Coverage" or similar... SiJoHaAl (talk) 05:15, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. The thing about misinformation and their believers is their concept: if it is not said to be wrong, couldn't it be right? So I feel it is very important to step up against misinformation and to point it out here. If you want to reduce the size of the article, think about transmission, treatment etc. But any of this topics has already a wikipedia page of its own. All of those sections would have to be trimmed to a minimum, an even shorter abstract what to find on the linked pages. --Traut (talk) 06:51, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

  As long as it's clearly presented as flawed, I think that the section is due, with a link to the main article. —PaleoNeonate – 11:23, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

• If this RfC ends up being no consensus, as it seems like it might, the closer will have to judge for themselves what the status quo is. Regardless of whether one feels the discussion back in early May that led to it being added was a consensus, I think it would be an extreme stretch to deny that an element that has existed for nearly two months in an article with 100,000 views per day (excepting periods of a few hours where it was removed before being restored by one of roughly a half dozen editors) has become the status quo. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 18:36, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Can I suggest that you leave it for the closer to decide instead of telling them what the consensus may be or what the status quo is? At the moment the number of votes for Option 3 is 14 (including one who also chose Option 2), and votes for Option 1 is 8 (including one who also chose option 2). There are almost twice as many people who chose Option 3 over Option 1. In the previous discussion you decided that there was a consensus when it was only 9 versus 7, so why the difference of opinion now? Remember also that the picture for the Iranian president was there much earlier. Hzh (talk) 09:42, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

The Video stayed stictly because of WP:3RR, I'm the 9th in the 9 vs 7. And when I saw that the description was not consensual, I removed the video twice. I'm since the 1rst week in 3RR with Sdkb. So no, there is no status quo whatsoever. Iluvalar (talk) 20:35, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah... I just officially broke WP:3RR and removed the image. I count 13x Option 3 and 9x Option 1. That's not a consensus, but at least a majority to vote for the removal of the image. Also note worthy that besides me, there was 3-4 other participants (see Hzh and SandyGeorgia) who mentioned NPOV and the difficulty we met to make a neutral spin on it rather then the image itself. I do not think I'm impartial enough to close this RfC. If someone can take a look at it ? Iluvalar (talk) 16:36, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, that kind of behavior will get you blocked Iluvalar. Let an uninvolved editor or admin close the discussion at the appropriate time. Meanwhile, WP:NOCON says "In deletion discussions, a lack of consensus normally results in the article, page, image, or other content being kept." The case here is that the video has been in the article for months, so it should remain until there is consensus to remove it. - MrX 🖋 19:20, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Who decided it's a deletion discussions ? I've been contesting it since the start in May. It should not have been added until a consensus was found. Iluvalar (talk) 19:24, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

The count is actually 15 for option 3 - one of them voted for option 2 but failing that, would chose nothing which is option 3, another you might have missed because the vote is given at the end. Anyway, wait for someone to close the RfC first (say, in a week or so) before doing anything. Hzh (talk) 11:31, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Technically I vetoed, so I didn't count myself. But the closer is free to do it. Option 1 is POV, it intentionally omit the correction of trump himself the next day. Iluvalar (talk)` —Preceding undated comment added 16:21, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

His claim the next "Friday that he had said it sarcastically." feels more like yet another mark on the list of his misinformations. Nothing within this press talk looked like sarcasm. But regardless of whether it was sarcasm or not, that's why it is such an excellent example here for misinformation - if no one at that point felt it was sarcasm and no one of his stuff had enough courage to stand up and say how stupid that idea was. --Traut (talk) 16:55, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if is excuses are pathetic or not. Or if he believe it or not. The guy did an errata the next day, and we chose to omit his own opinion. It takes more then a 50:50 split in discussion to break WP:NPOV. We all know this is a political problem, not a Covid-19 one. Iluvalar (talk) 17:33, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Trump got caught telling a deadly lie. Even Fox News anchor, John Roberts (who attended the briefing where Trump suggested his deadly lie) did not believe Trump's 'I was being sarcastic' bs lie as a cover-up for his deadly lie the day before. Fox News' John Roberts said, "I was watching very closely and at no time did I seem to think that the president was sarcastically asking the question.” [24] There is no POV issue. Trump's told a deadly lie where manufacturers and states EMA had to issue warnings telling people "under no circumstance should our disinfectant products be administered into the human body through injection, ingestion or any other route." That's called a fact (not a POV issue). If Trump doesn't want encyclopedias to report his deadly lies; then Trump should stop spreading deadly lies -- but so far -- Trump cannot seem to help himself from spreading deadly lies about COVID19. [25] BetsyRMadison (talk) 11:24, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

User:BetsyRMadison mmm, it seems more the media who crafted flavors of misinformation there, and certainly they’re the ones who then made it widespread. The reporting was typically not relating the words or context but attacking Trump. That coverage amount makes this thus DUE for mention, but gets OFFTOPIC in the way of any Covid message by lost credibility as soon as it becomes about making a personal/political attack. The image is unrelated to the disease and the good/bad nature of the idea, it’s about President Trump and the partisan denouncing. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 23:18, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Is Washington Post: Fake Coronavirus Cure Bleach actually true? It's hard to believe that people fall for that kind of misinformation. --Traut (talk) 07:51, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Oh, that doesn't surprise me at all - at my age, the gullibility of our species makes me wonder how we managed to last this long. But it's a great example of why we need to insist on impeccable sources here. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:59, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

This discussion was archived before it was closed, it needs someone to close it before archiving. Hzh (talk) 11:29, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Hzh, the article could have sat in the archive fine while waiting for a close. Dredging it up again is just going to lead to more argument, which is unlikely to be helpful given that the main cases have already been made at this point. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 23:13, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

An archived post won't get closed since no one is supposed to make any changes to the thread once it is archived. Hzh (talk) 01:26, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Unrelated proposal to change information dissemination body text

Merge. The words in italics are proposed changes by me. There are also some word that I trimmed. I propose this be the Information disemmation section: ...Some scientists chose to share their results quickly on preprint servers such as bioRxiv. Meanwhile, the pandemic has resulted in misinformation and conspiracy theories about the scale of the pandemic and the origin, prevention, diagnosis, and treatment of the disease. False information has been spread through social media, text messaging, and mass media, including the tabloid media, conservative media, and state media of countries such as China, Russia, Iran, and Turkmenistan. It has also been reportedly spread by covert operations backed by states such as Saudi Arabia, Russia and China to generate panic and sow distrust in other countries. In some countries, such as India, Bangladesh, and Ethiopia, journalists have been arrested for allegedly spreading fake news about the pandemic. Misinformation has been propagated by celebrities, politicians (including heads of state in countries such as the United States, Iran, and Brazil), and other public figures. Commercial scams have claimed to offer at-home tests, supposed preventives, and "miracle" cures. Several religious groups have claimed their faith will protect them from the virus. Some people have claimed the virus is a bioweapon accidentally or purposefully leaked from a laboratory, a population-control scheme, the result of a spy operation, or the side effect of 5G upgrades to cellular networks. The World Health Organization has declared an "infodemic" of misinformation about the virus, which poses global health risks. And no visual. That is way cleaner and not taking up space. GeraldWL 15:20, 28 July 2020 (UTC) The section text is transcluded from Misinformation related to the COVID-19 pandemic. Please post at the talk page there, which is the appropriate forum. This talk page is not, and especially not in an unrelated discussion about the body text of the section. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 23:18, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Mitigation outcomes

I think this (paraphrased) is worth adding, maybe in the management section:

In the absence of policy actions, we estimate that early infections of COVID-19 exhibit exponential growth rates of roughly 38% per day. We find that anti-contagion policies have significantly and substantially slowed this growth. Some policies have different impacts on different populations, but we obtain consistent evidence that the policy packages now deployed are achieving large, beneficial, and measurable health outcomes. We estimate that across these six countries, interventions prevented or delayed on the order of 62 million confirmed cases, corresponding to averting roughly 530 million total infections.

— The effect of large-scale anti-contagion policies on the COVID-19 pandemic

(unsigned post)

References

thank you for suggestion--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 17:56, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Virology Novel Virus IS NOT CORRECT it is a Strain

In the virology section it is claimed that the SARS Corona Virus which causes the COVID-19 pandemic is a novel virus, yet on the linked to page from that section it is not claimed as a novel virus. There it says it is a novel strain, yet further down the Spanish section on the COVID-19 Pandemic article (this one here) says that there were 15 new strains detected. This is confusing. With no mention of antigenic drift nor antigenic shift (nor any links to these) what is a strain is not clear. I propose that in the Virology section the word strain should be included and a link give to that article Strain (biology) which explains this more clearly. As the Spanish reference is in Spanish it is unclear to me if the use in Spanish is the same as the English scientific usage.

WHAT constitutes a new strain? Is the mutation being called the D614G mutation? Which is so called because the mutation alters the position of amino acid at 614, and from D (aspartic acid) to G (glycine), hence, D-614-G A NEW STRAIN? or NOT? It is hard to know what wikipedia is doing here. When I look at the above comment someone is asked for a peer reviewed scientific publication, yet is not wikipedia supposed to be OK with secondary sources OR even to prefer them? Surely peer reviewed studies (rather than a review study) are not secondary sources if they are published research? Yet media articles would be? cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Primary,_secondary,_and_tertiary_sources "Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources, i.e., a document or recording that relates or discusses information originally presented elsewhere." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.30.115 (talk) 06:52, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 24 August 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Since it is clear that this RM will not pass, I am closing this early. I will be opening up a discussion on the talk page on how long a move moratorium should be. Interstellarity (talk) 11:18, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

---

COVID-19 pandemic → Coronavirus pandemic – While I realize this has had RMs before and I have proposed this when a different title has been suggested we don't appear to have had a RM to this title. Per main articles Coronavirus and Coronavirus disease 2019. "Coronavirus pandemic" gets about 123,000 results while "COVID-19 pandemic" only gets about 20,100 results at BBC. Worldometer calls it "COVID-19 CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC". "Coronavirus pandemic" On Google news gets about 141,000,000 while "COVID-19 pandemic" gets about 190,000,000 but indeed this could just be because its abbreviated similar to the fact that "Thames" gets about 8,440,000" while "River Thames" only gets about 220,000 yet the article is correctly at River Thames (with Thames redirecting there). COVID" is an acronym for "Coronavirus disease 2019" but unlike 9/11 conspiracy theories/September 11 attacks I'm not convinced that the shorter term is significantly more common to have it in this title (WP:NCA). While the analogy might not the the same with results for COVID-19 v Thames it does suggest that the full name is used at least often enough to prevent the abbreviation being the WP:COMMONNAME All the other sub articles like COVID-19 pandemic in Italy should be moved if this is moved. Although there have been other outbreaks of coronavirus this is the only pandemic and is clearly the primary topic anyway and the proposed title already redirects here. Yes we don't need 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic (or similar) per WP:PRECISE/WP:CONCISE the proposed title doesn't include any further description of the year (which would suggest that there were other coronavirus pandemics) but also avoids the abbreviation. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:42, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose: Coronavirus pandemic can happen many times. To avoid ambiguity it seems to need 19 or 2019. Sawol (talk) 18:09, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:CONSISTENT. There is a general consensus that all article titles, except for the primary article at Coronavirus disease 2019, use "COVID-19" instead of "Coronairus". Rreagan007 (talk) 18:21, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

  That's because they were moved to be consistent with this one, are there any other articles further up that this one is WP:CONSISTENT with? otherwise all sub articles of this like COVID-19 pandemic by country and territory (which were moved to match this article) follow this not the other way round. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:26, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

  COVID-19 testing, COVID-19 vaccine, COVID-19 recession, COVID-19 drug development. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:09, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose for specificity. This is not the only coronavirus pandemic that ever is, was, or will be. JIP | Talk 18:28, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per JIP. El Millo (talk) 18:34, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per the argument from Sawol and JIP. Andysmith248 (talk) 18:57, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose for specificity. SARS is also a coronavirus. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:09, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose there are many virus strain that also is a Coronavirus. SARS is a Coronavirus, MERS also a coronavirus. The title should be specific name in order to avoid confusion. 110.137.186.235 (talk) 19:15, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose for the reasons mentioned above. David A (talk) 19:17, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose for above ambiguity, and WP:SNOW close. Hard moratorium on all move requests for at least another year. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 20:38, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. We've already had the SARS and MERS outbreaks already, which are also coronaviruses. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 20:43, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose: Media reference counts are not the sole determinant of the most appropriate WP title. "COVID-19" and "Coronavirus" are both used extensively and there will be few people unfamiliar with either. However, "COVID-19" is precise and will remain so, whereas "Coronavirus" is already ambiguous and stands to become more so over time. Rupert Clayton (talk) 22:42, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - name consistency, for this case specifically COVID-19 and per above. Dede2008 (talk) 00:26, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose for other reasons listed by other users above. Paintspot Infez (talk) 00:53, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:CONSISTENT (as mentioned by Rreagan007), and also because the article is about the pandemic caused by a specific strain of coronavirus. Vida0007 (talk) 05:11, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per Rreagan007, et al. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 07:34, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose This is not the only coronavirus pandemic. There are other coronaviruses epidemic that happened in the past. David Isaac C. M. (talk) 08:34, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose The rationale for the current title was, a pandemic should be named after the disease causing it, in this case, the disease is COVID-19 disease, not coronavirus disease, right?--Chanaka L (talk) 10:46, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Strong oppose and speedy close per above. —hueman1 (talk • contributions) 10:59, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.