Talk:Arthur Janov/Archive 1

I am Yves

OK, what is needed to make this page more complete? I guess somebody got to research Art Janov's life and work and document it. There are a few things that I know, however maybe most everybody know these ...

Born in... parents...
Childhood in Venice?
His education at UCLA
His activities in the UCLA student association - it seems he was very liberal to the point of prompting actions from the more conservative university administration.
His military service?
His carreer at the VET
His discovery of Primal therapy
His first wife Vivian and children (Rick, Ellen), death of Ellen
The expansion then contraction of the Primal therapy centers networks
His media appearances
The Patent history and issues.
His influence and dealings with mainstream psychology
His protectiveness of the therapy procedures.
His divorce with Vivian, and settlement
The change of therapeutic orientation at the Primal Institute after his departure.
His re-marriage with France
His establishment of a new Primal Center see web site in Venice
His musical career
His bibliography Here is a list of his books
The influences of his findings on the field of psychology

Videgard said that "(had) there been 90 - 98% or even an 80% success rate, wouldn't there be Janovian Primal Institutes all over the place now?". Videgard recognized some degree of success to primal theraphy with some patients, but he also said that it was far to be the Ultimate theraphy that Janov claims to be.

I just picked this text in the web: "Anyone seriously practicing primal quickly realized that this process was not as simple or universally effective as had been promised. Those convinced of its great potential stuck with it and gradually developed the theory and practice. Like anything fairly new, primal needed time to mature. Arthur Janov continued his grandiose claims (and still does) that his center is the only location in the world where a person can be cured. The Primal Institute trained therapists, but for various reasons, they were rarely given the certification to practice outside the center. This strange policy retarded the growth and availability of qualified therapists. "Defectors" from the center started practicing in other locations, and primal grew, like the natural thing that it is - but very slowly."

I do not know if primal therapy is really effective, but I can tell you that I do not trust Arthur Janov, the man.

Caveat emptor.

Randroide 10:29, 12 March 2006 (UTC)RandroideRandroide 10:29, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Janov and his therapists made mistakes like everyone else does. The theory and practice of the therapy have changed tremendously since Janov wrote the Primal Scream and even since Videgard's study. I was told by a Janov certified therapist, that highly significant improvements to the therapy and the training of the therapists were developed around 1992. Unfortunately there does not seem to be any medical research (e.g. EEG, killer cells, stress hormones) on therapy outcomes after that period. Janov made very bold claims in the past. These days he is more modest and does admit that mistakes were made, therapy takes several years and does not work for everybody (see the link to his "Grand Delusions"). Nonetheless his theory on the etiology of mental illness as stemming from early trauma is so richly backed up by medical research that it cannot be doubted. There does not appear to be any other therapy that brings about as much beneficial "psychological" change as well as physical change (see the brain mapping studies done by Erik Hoffmann in "Why You Get Sick and How You Get Well"). The reliving episodes (Primals) that occur reproducably in correct Primal Therapy (by the way Vivian Janov's Primal Institute does *NOT* do correct Primal Therapy) are apparently key to the healing process and allow the organism to recover from imprinted trauma.

JANOV IS NOT A CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST!

I am David

I have a long history in the Primal therapy movement. I was a feeling therapist for years utilizing Janov's techniques but our place could not use the primal therapy trademark. I have also been a patient at the Primal Institute. For quite a few years I was the editor of an alternative primal newsletter "The Primal Connection".

Janov is a dramatic person. Add to that that Janov made an amazing discovery. Patients were crying, loudly weeping, or, sometimes, in fact, ultimately screaming. Patients were having insights. Often the insights are earth-shattering; sometimes they help patients make sense of their life. Janov's books have, therefore, been dramatic. His claims have been dramatic. Let me try to put what is happening currently in perspective.

Today, the patients who request primal therapy are interviewed. If it sounds like their problems are "primal", that is, a direct connection can be made between some of their problems and a source of their problems in childhood, the patient is accepted. (For example, a young man says he is an exhibitionist and that his mother never paid attention to him. Bingo. Here's a primal problem. A female comes in and says she is afraid of death and has trouble with relationships and doesn't demonstrate any knowlddge of a connection to anything from the past. She is not an ideal patient, and would be turned down by most primal therapists). The acceptance into therapy doesn't guarantee the patient will have primals or get well. Some patients cannot access their old feelings. These patients don't primal and don't get well, or even, significantly better. The patients who have primals, true reliving experiences that complete old feelings that were not completed at the time of trauma, do, typically, make major changes and do get better. I can't say everyone makes drastic changes.

Let me say it another way. Many people in recovery, try AA. Some people work the program; some don't. The ones who say AA didn't work for them do include those who really tried, but also includes those who never really worked the program or just went through the motions. Some will say they quit right away because it didn't work for them. Nothing works for everybody. In the case of primal therapy, only patients who have primals have insights and make major changes in their life and in how they feel.

I remember meeting a patient who had been in therapy for years before he cried for the first time beyond a few tears. Primal Therapy wasn't working for him, he should have tried something else, long before that day. If people like him are listed among those for whom Primal therapy failed, it is because they didn't do Primal Therapy. Having sessions with a therapist doesn't mean therapy occurs. I would like to see a completely unbiased study of those who have actually primaled to see the long term results of therapy.

Reverted Edit

The following 3 paragraphs were added to the article:

Arthur was married to Vivian Janov, M.A., and had two children, Rick and Ellen. Ellen died when a young adult due to carbon monoxide poisoning caused by a malfunctioning heating system in her home. Arthur and Vivan later divorced and she received the trademark "Primal Institute" as part of the divorce settlement. Vivian is presently the executive director of the Institute in Los Angeles which is separate and distinct from Janov's "Primal Center". Arthur married France D. Janov, Ph.D., in 1973. France presently co-directs the Primal Center with Arthur.

An objective criticism of Janov's therapy appears in Tomas Videgard's book The Success and Failure of Primal Therapy (1984). Other authors who have written directly or indirectly about Primal Theory include Alice Miller (Banished Knowledge, For Your Own Good: Hidden Cruelty In Child Rearing and the Roots of Violence and others), Theresa Sheppard Alexander (Facing the Wolf: Inside the Process of Deep Feeling Therapy1996) and J. Konrad Stettbacher (Making Sense of Suffering: The Healing Confrontation With Your Own Past).

Primal Therapy may be considered a type of "regressive" therapy. Janov cautions that this therapy should not practiced by therapists who have not received training at his Primal Center.

I reverted these paragraphs because: the first contains personal information that needs to be confirmable from other sources (the article already has a link to biographic information on Arthur Janov's website); the second and 3rd relate to Primal Therapy and are already covered to a degree in that article and the Alice Miller (psychologist) article. GrahameKing 02:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The 1973 date is totally unbelievable as this is the year that The Journal of Primal Therapy was first published and it ran for some 5 years with Arthur and Vivian Janov's name appearing together as co-directors of the Primal Institute. GrahameKing 06:11, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Ellen Janov (born April 22nd 1953) died Jan 7th, 1976 in a fire in her home.[1]] A collection of her poems appeared in the Journal of Primal Therapy in Volume III Number 2 - SUMMER 1976. The last volume of the Journal was in the fall of 1978 (Vol V No 2). This places the divorce of Arthur and Vivian as probably some time after that. But this is speculation and not acceptable for a Wikipedia article, especially a biography. GrahameKing 07:18, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow! There I go again making an unwarranted assumption. The 1973 date for Arthur's marriage to France is established as pointed out by Randroid on Arthur Janov's website. What must have happened was that Vivian got the right to use his name on The Journal of Primal Therapy for five years as part of the divorce settlement. That's what was throwing me. GrahameKing 23:01, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

The 1973 date is indeed totally unbelievable. I'm convinced the date on Arthur Janov's website is in error by exactly ten years. If you have a copy of "primal Man" (1975) you will find the name "France Daunic" in the acknowledgements section (France D.). I think the actual date of the marriage is more likely to be around the time the European Primal Institute was set up. It should be possible to obtain independent confirmation by sending an email enquiry to Vivian Janov's Primal Institute. -- Simon (81.174.212.170 00:03, 16 January 2007 (UTC))

Thankyou so much for that, Simon. I'll do that. GrahameKing 07:19, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

It's important that you don't just rely on a response from Arthur Janov's Primal Center. Someone other than Art will most likely deal with the enquiry. From the time when Primal-Page.com had a discussion forum I remember that staff at Art's Center were said to support whatever Art says without question. A response from Vivian Janov's Primal Institute is more likely to be factually correct. You might be interested to read an article by one of Art's certified therapists who was actually there in the 1970s -- An Experience with Enchantment. His email address is included in the article. Apart from France D. herself, none of the present staff at Arthur Janov's Primal Center worked at the original Primal Institute. -- Simon (81.174.214.114 15:25, 16 January 2007 (UTC))

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Grahame, do you have a complete set of Arthur Janov's books? There's something I forgot to mention yesterday. In 1973, Simon & Schuster published The Feeling Child. It contains a chapter by Vivian Janov describing how she, Art, and the children, applied primal therapy to their family life at home. No mention of France D. or an impending divorce. If the divorce did take place around 1982/83 that might also explain why the New York Institute closed down at that time. Perhaps Vivian didn't want to maintain a satellite center. Meanwhile, Art and France had to find somewhere else to set up shop. -- Simon (81.174.211.83 18:26, 17 January 2007 (UTC))

Now your speculating like me, Simon. Relax. I have already received an email from France Janov but as per your own advice I am still waiting to hear from The Primal Institute for some word. Before posting anything definite, I would like to give France time to have the correction made on the website - after all, I can hardly reference an email in my mail box as the source - how verifiable is that? - but appears to have been a simple error or glitch of some kind. I can't remember for certain the exact year of my own marriage - I would have to look it up. GrahameKing 04:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The following badly made link was also added:

• The Primal Pyschotherapy Page [2]

I reverted this link rather than fixing it because there is nothing authoritative there on either Arthur Janov, the person, or on Primal Therapy. There is a lot of material there about subjects like LSD therapy and rebirthing which are anathema to Primal Therapy. GrahameKing 02:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Mr. King: Where do you have the authority to revert articles when you are ignorant of facts. I have researched Janov's divorce within the Los Angeles Superior Court. For you to unilaterally decide that there is inadequate documentation seriously limits information available on Wikipedia. In particular you could have left the names of Janov's children and wives on the site even if you were unsure of the date. There was also no reason to remove the links to other primal therapy pages which gives the reader the option to do further research. Your deletion of the reference to Videgaard's book is without reason and is a disservice to anyone seeking "authoritative" information. Your reliance on information from the Primal Center's web site is ill placed (I hope you do not think that they have made a full disclosure of facts or that all the information found atthat site is "authoritative").Summersg 18:44, 29 January 2007 (UTC)