Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cameron Cartee (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Sandstein 06:43, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Cameron Cartee[edit]

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Renominating because in the last (non-admin closed) AfD, the only keep argument was that Cartee met criterion #10 of WP:MUSICBIO. This policy affirms that a musician may be notable if he has performed music for a work of media that is notable. This doesn't hold up because the article doesn't say Cartee performs music at all. Mottezen (talk) 05:43, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Mottezen (talk) 05:43, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. Mottezen (talk) 05:43, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Engineering-related deletion discussions. Mottezen (talk) 05:43, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Wisconsin-related deletion discussions. Mottezen (talk) 05:43, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I did not alert the author of this discussion because I suspect they are connected to all the previous AfD's !keep voters. Mottezen (talk) 05:45, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: It's a bit hard to say that WP:MUSICBIO applies to music engineers (because it does not explicitly mention them). This fellow appears to have a solid background and industry appreciation as an engineer. References are better than a lot of other articles I have seen for music engineers. Meets WP:BASIC --Whiteguru (talk) 20:19, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Extraordinary Writ (talk) 05:44, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Sound engineers do not pass MUSICBIO by definition. This biography fails WP:GNG. The six references are not good at all. The first three ([1][2][3]) are promotional PR. The last three ([4][5][6] barely mention Cartee (he's in a list).--Eostrix (^{🦉 hoot} _hoot🦉) 06:53, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. It may be time for an RfC on what notability requirements apply for music engineers and producers, rather than going through a bunch of AfD nominations of music engineers where nobody can agree what the consensus is. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 11:18, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I've been starting AfDs of audio engineers in my spare time because I found that many of them appeared promotional. Those that have been deleted thus far were poorly sourced, and appeared promotional for structural reasons. Because of the lack of reliable coverage about their lives, the articles focused on their production credits. Such articles are essentially advertisements: "This guy worked with a bunch of notable artists, you should hire him". Mottezen (talk) 03:40, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Producers are covered by WP:PRODUCER. The current consensus is that NMUSIC doesn't cover audio engineers, though if somebody starts an RfC to change that, I'll stop nominating audio engineers for deletion during the time it runs. Mottezen (talk) 03:40, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Eostrix's convincing source analysis. Fails WP:MUSICBIO and WP:SIGCOV.4meter4 (talk) 22:31, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Now that the correct guideline (WP:PRODUCER) has been identified, I'm relisting to see if anyone wants to make a case under that.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, SpinningSpark 19:49, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete What is an audio engineer? It's not a person with an engineering degree. It's someone who is hired to work in a studio "engineering" a recording. I have done some minor recording engineering, so I know what it is: sitting behind a mixing board and computer adjusting levels, equalization and mixing of the tracks. They might also add effects like reverb to tracks. they are essentially equipment operators who adjust the amplitude and frequency characteristics of the parts of a recording. It's a run of the mill job. Audio "engineering" not the kind of "engineering" we might look at for a engineering professor who is on the tenure-track at a university. Even those accredited engineers, of which there are hundreds of thousands, are not typically notable under WP:NPROF, as we have high standard there. For this non-accredited recording engineer, I would expect that they would need to have some large accomplishments to meet GNG. There would have to be good coverage, or significant awards, and there seems to be very little of those here. the fact that they worked on adjusting levels for a famous musician's recording just does not cut it, unless good pubs have written about that work. In short, this is just a guy doing his job, who has attracted a small amount of low-quality coverage. There is nothing particularly notable about his accomplishments, and this is attested to by the lack of coverage in reliable sources. --- Possibly ☎ 22:12, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know why you have brought up NPROF, nobody in this discussion has suggested that audio engineers are a discipline of chartered engineers. I have worked in the industry too, so I know perfectly well that they are not. It is, however, recognised that the engineer can contribute significantly to the creative content of a recording and can become very notable for it. That's how come we have category:audio engineers and why PRODUCER is the relevant guideline here. For the avoidance of doubt, I am not making an argument either way for this particular engineer. SpinningSpark 13:33, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: There is no argument that can be made to !keep this article based of WP:PRODUCER. The list of artists that the article claims this person worked with is total bullshit. We can see here that he appears in the credits of a single song of a mixtape by DJ Esco that includes songs originally created by the artists listed in the lede of the article. That seems to be where this list comes from. None of the other credits can be verified, as this guy isn't even listed in the AllMusic database. Mottezen (talk) 05:31, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.