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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Even discounting the IP's and SPA accounts who showed up here to !vote (which I did), I don't see a consensus to delete here. There are some available sources (the most detailed being the PhD dissertation) which suggest that we might be able to maintain an article based on verifiable information. Many (or perhaps just one or two) of the partisans of this article did themselves no favors here with their pile-on votes to keep and the article still needs work. Future AfD's are not, I would think, out of the question.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 06:54, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Grama Vidiyal[edit]

Grama Vidiyal (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Article is mostly advertising and all of the sources point to company websites. TN‑X-Man 11:55, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The wiki does not seem to focus anymore on advertising than any company's wiki. There are as many references as other corporate websites. Most financial information, of course, comes from the company.

Please reference specific areas of controversy...your post is rather ambiguous. 125.22.250.12 (talk) 12:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC) 25.22.250.12|125.22.250.12]] (talk) 12:09, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

interesting diff FelisLeoTalk! 12:19, 29 May 2008 (UTC) (Blanked the Page)[reply]
please note (in case it is improtant that it is the talk page that was blanked and not the article itself. Jasynnash2 (talk) 14:35, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Per nom (which isn't ambigous at all)and Per CSD:G11 (Blatant Advertising/SPAM)FelisLeoTalk! 12:12, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete No independent evidence of notability. Lexis-Nexis turns up no mention of this company in any major news or business publications. Kafka Liz (talk) 12:17, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but I do not see how this is blatant advertising. The listing of products is useful information for anyone interested in microfinance. The people that receive Grama Vidiyal's services do not even have access to the internet, so this is not being aimed at them. The information is useful for anyone trying to get a rough sense of what Grama Vidiyal does. Other banks websites, e.g. Goldman Sachs, offer a listing of their financials and profits (this information comes from their website for most part) and no one objects.

It does not show up in Lexis Nexus because it is a small company located in rural India. Check out www.mixmarket.org and you will find a listing. I simply think you guys are not familiar with the microfinance industry, which is quite small and developing. However, it is notable as many academics are studying the field as a means to alleviate poverty. It is comparable to other microfinance firm on Wikipedia, SKS microfinance. 125.22.250.12 (talk) 12:23, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't say it didn't show up in Lexis-Nexis: I was able to find its press-releases easily. It is not, however, mentioned in any major news or business publications. Can you find reliable, independent sources that cover this institution? Kafka Liz (talk) 12:31, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's in the mix market global 100 ranking of microfinance institutions. It is the #4 MFI in the world and leading MFI in India. www.mixmbb.org/Publications/001-IND/01-IND.ANLS/02-IND.ANLS.MFI/Global%20100%20Final.pdf. 125.22.250.12 (talk) 12:42, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Grama Vidiyal doesn't appear anywhere in that pdf reference.  Esradekan Gibb  "Talk" 13:04, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I believe it's the "GV" in India listed in the report several times. --Orange Mike | Talk 15:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the page is fine as is. It simply is telling us what this firm does. Since its microfinance, it obviously is not advertising because its clients do not have access to electricity, let alone wikipedia Ted46530 (talk) 12:55, 29 May 2008 (UTC) — Ted46530 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. TN‑X-Man 13:08, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Weak Keep if the claim about being the leading microfinance company in India can be properly sourced and verified it would meet notability requirements. The article does need significant work in improving the tone and removing some "advertisy" language though and the author needs a warning about removing AfD tags while the matter is still in discussion. The article would also need to be renamed to Grama Vidiyal Microfinance which seems to be the fuller and more used name. Jasynnash2 (talk) 14:33, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


The claim about being the leading microfinance firm in India can be found in the mixmarket report I linked above. 125.22.250.12 (talk) 14:36, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete - If an admin can check the history of the deleted version, he or she would see the battle that took place in the wee hours of the morning today with all the sockpuppets of the article's starter. Also see the long discussion on my own talk page about it. So the starter finally requested it be deleted. I CSD tagged it with author's request for deletion. Now I see author recreated the article with exact copy. Besides all of the sockpuppets issue, the sock can't seem to understand what verifiable resources or Conflict of interest means, as evidenced by his actions and it having been explained to him on my talk page. - ✰ALLST☆R✰ echo 18:51, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
While I strongly sympathize with you on this (if you note the history, I was the one who originally tagged it COI and dealt with the socks), we really should be debating the article on its own merits, rather than the antics of its creator. We don't "punish" editors for their behavior by deleting their articles, since they don't own them anyway. -- ShinmaWa(talk) 12:17, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep the sources show a sufficiently large and important company, so it is notable. the unfortunate editing history does not invalidate the article. DGG (talk) 04:08, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Having said the above (that we should be debating the article on its own merits), I can't find much reliable third party coverage of this company. I'm easily able to find their press releases regurgitated in various forms, but nothing in the way of independent third party coverage. What little bit that has been presented (like that PDF) only mentions the company incidentally. In fact, as Orange Mike points out, it only refers to the company by its initials. This is hardly the extensive coverage needed to meet WP:RS and WP:V. Because of the above, I'm afraid it does not meet WP:CORP at this time. -- ShinmaWa(talk) 12:17, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Are you honestly comparing this little company to the likes of NASA and IBM? Very large organizations are often referred to by their initials, especially when their full name is unwieldy. However, by no stretch of the imagination is Grama Vidiyal a "large organization with an unwieldy name". The use of their initials in the Mix Market report was ubiquitous. EVERY company listed in there was referred to by its initials, because the report was a summary report on the industry. Nearly all of the additional sources you found using the GV name are either the Mix Market report we've already seen or their own press releases, which we've also already seen. A mention of this company in a single book doesn't really make for "multiple" sources. -- ShinmaWa(talk) 18:29, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Looking though a few of those Google hits its still looks like mostly primary sources. (press releases) and publications that are directly based on those primary sources, which are also not independent because the are all by sources that are affililated to microfinance in general. This is also the big difference between the SKS Microfinance article and this one. That being said, the Grama Vidiyal could stay if some secondary sources are introduced to establish notability. FelisLeoTalk! 08:08, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]


As mentioned in the article, the company currently registered as an [NBFC] and henceforth goes by its full name. You will find many other companies of similar size and scope as Grama Vidiyal on wikipedia. For instance, [SKS Microfinance]. I don't think being a Fortune 500 company is a requirement for having a Wikipedia page as some of you seem to be proposing. The business does significant work in India, and most people with knowledge ofa microfinance have heard of the compny. No offense to anyone in particular, but a misfortunate practice of wikipedia is to allow administrators with no knowledge of a subject to control the information that is presented. I have studied microfinance, and Grama Vidiyal is certainly a notable name.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Charlie1858 (talk • contribs) .

  • Comment I probably would say that too if I worked there. I think its better to leave the editing of an article about the company you work at to other editors, but that's me. FelisLeoTalk! 08:35, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]


As I have said many times, I do NOT work there. There was a miscommunication that fails to go away. Charlie1858 (talk) 20:02, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well you said so yourself, at least that is what it says when you follow the diff I linked before. (this one) And to be honest I do not care if you work there or not as long as your edits dont reflect this. (WP:COI). FelisLeoTalk! 20:22, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What, then, did you mean when you typed, "This is an organization I work for and am creating the wikipedia page for"?--Orange Mike | Talk 16:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I made that up since I thought you had to be someone with direct knowledge of subject to write a wikipedia page...obviously it's the exact opposite :) charlie1858 76.208.60.114 (talk) 22:15, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]



  • Keep:- After some search & research, I have found one Dr.Gaamaa Hishigsuren, a fellow of MicroFinance Management Institute and an expert in microenterprise development finance. Intrestengly, she has presented her PhD thesis on Grama Vidial and ASA. You could take a look at her thesis submitted at Southern New Hampshire University in Aug 2004. I have requested her help concerning this issue.

[http://www.snhu.edu/files/pdfs/Hishigsuren.pdf] dilli2040 (talk) 20:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep This organisation is definitely the largest in Tamil Nadu and provides good services to the poor and the downtrodden. I dont find any concrete reason on why the article is not fit to be hosted in wiki. I just checked the SKS microfinance page hosted in wiki and has similar information even of lesser quality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKS_Microfinance
  • Comment what is mentioned here in the grama Vidiyal wiki page is a very balanced information which is provided to any person who is interested to know about the organisation. There is no bias towards anyside and every information is definitely supported with the relevant note document. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.164.248.29 (talk) 04:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I did some further research and found that ASA and Grama vidiyal has been featured in ING and microfinance page. There were only two institutions featured and it has many details of ASA and Grama vidiyal. Also it has a case study video. Kindly refer to the following links. It definitely proves what is stated in the wikipage is true.

the page is in a different language click the EN link in the page to view it in english

http://www.ingmicrofinanciering.nl/home/index.php?a=YTozOntpOjM7YToxOntzOjQ6InBhZ2UiO3M6NDoiMjU4MSI7fWk6NDthOjE6e3M6NDoicGFnZSI7czo0OiIyNTgxIjt9aToxO2E6Mjp7czo0OiJ5ZWFyIjtzOjQ6IjIwMDgiO3M6NDoicGFnZSI7czo0OiIyNTgxIjt9fQ==&child=2&mlinkid=2579&2linkid=2581

Video case study of a Grama Vidiyal client

http://www.ingmicrofinanciering.nl/home/index.php?a=YTozOntpOjM7YToxOntzOjQ6InBhZ2UiO3M6NDoiMjczMyI7fWk6NDthOjE6e3M6NDoicGFnZSI7czo0OiIyNzMzIjt9aToxO2E6Mjp7czo0OiJ5ZWFyIjtzOjQ6IjIwMDgiO3M6NDoicGFnZSI7czo0OiIyNzMzIjt9fQ==&child=3&mlinkid=2579&2linkid=2581&3linkid=2715&4linkid=2733 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.164.248.29 (talk) 05:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]


  • Keep Check this link it has the insurance information of GV as mentioned in this page

http://news.planetfinance.org/documents/FR/Nominees_MIA_270725_ppt.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.75.127.142 (talk) 06:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment All Most of the unsigned comments and comments coming from IPs are from Anons with very few edits which are all related to the Grama Vidiyal article and therefore are likely to be connected to the Grama Vidyal company. FelisLeoTalk! 09:30, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]


  • Comment As FelisLeo states, all the contributions and support to Grama Vidiyal comes directly from that company resources. I believe that guys from GV, instead of simply posting more scattered references, take some effort by involving contributors and neutral wikipedians from around your area. dilli2040(Talk) 13:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep It is clear that any contentious information is corroborated by outside sources. Other information (especially information provided by the COO and others within the organization) is noncontentious -- we should be happy that they are adding such specific operational information to their articles. Microfinance is a field that could use more information and internal transparency, not less.antonber(Talk) 12:00, 6 June 2008 (ET) — antonber (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. Kafka Liz (talk) 16:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Antonber makes a good point. This company seems to be run by a charitable trust; i cannot see how this is a matter of conflict of interest or some kind of advertising stunt. They should be able to leverage the wikipedia platform to inform 1)other MFIs who are looking to understand how a successful MFI works and 2) viable candidates for their services. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.107.163.95 (talk) 17:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC) — 85.107.163.95 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. TN‑X-Man 18:29, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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