Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mon (currency)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus [1]. Dihydrogen Monoxide (H₂O) 23:17, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mon (currency)[edit]

The three currencies (Japanese mon, Korean mun, Chinese wén) are all pronounced and spelled differently, even though they originated from the same character (文). It is inappropriate to put them all under a disambig page with the Japanese transliteration.

Precedence:

They are all disambig pages that can mean currencies or something else. But on krone, we don't see a link to Czech koruna. In addition, kroon may only refer to one currency, so it simply redirects to Estonian kroon. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 03:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. That's a bad example as all of those are not written with the same character, so there's no possibility for confusion. There is definite possibility of confusion for those unfamiliar with the pronunciation. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Merge back to mon, which is already a disambiguation page. Also merge to mun and wen if you want. Don't see any reason for this to exist separately, though obviously the three national groups in question desparately need something else to edit-war over now that the Takeliandokcourt Dorockshimas, Tianchonchiji, etc. debacles have settled down. cab 07:28, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment — Noting that the Chinese wén is the roots for all 3 currencies in this case, moving it to Wén (currency) might be an idea. Ideally we can move it to Wén (currency), and then expand it into a multicultural article like Dollar is now. I think we should pave way for more CJK (or CJKV) collaboration in the form of a new wikiproject, to make such things possible. Please let me know if anybody is interested. (If the naming conventions had allowed, a move to 文 (currency) would have made even more sense, but that's not possible.) --Endroit 20:32, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps just link all three currency article together? One article each for the three currencies, then have See also links. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:02, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - I believe expanding the See also section in all 3 articles is a good alternative for what I will suggest below...--Endroit 16:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletions. -- Fg2 10:08, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
~~Move to 文 (currency)~~ ; ~~Move to 文~~ ; Merge into User:Endroit/文 and rename it 文, if Chinese characters are allowed in DAB page titles. If we take this route, I believe WP:WPDAB should be involved. I have requested comments from editors at WP:WPDAB at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Disambiguation#Creation of a CJK Taskforce to handle Chinese characters to discuss if Chinese characters should be allowed in DAB page titles.--Endroit 16:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC) (Revised 20:17, 6 September 2007, then 14:47, 8 September 2007 (UTC))[reply]
Comment If moved, please move to 文 or merge to Wen or similar . There's not need for a parenthetical if the base name is open, and disambiguation pages try to avoid separating based on case or accent marks. (And if the base name weren't open, the disambiguation should be 文 (disambiguation) or Wen (disambiguation), not 文 (currency) or Wén (currency). There is no need to use a parenthetical other than (disambiguation) on a disambiguation page title, and the Disambiguation Project also works to "fold" the exceptions back in to the "main" disambiguation page if they've been so splintered. The guidelines for use of Chinese characters is disambiguation titles should follow the guidelines for use of Chinese characters in article titles, whatever those are. -- JHunterJ 17:18, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- DAB pages are considered "non-articles", per MOS:DAB. They don't necessarily follow the same rules as for normal articles. Redirects with Chinese characters already exist... 横浜, 中国, 中華民國, etc. Therefore, it follows that: DAB pages with Chinese characters should obviously exist as well... 文 or 文 (currency).--Endroit 17:32, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  Redirects aren't disambiguation either, so that doesn't obviously follow. I'd still lean toward naming the disambiguation pages using the article naming rules, and if redirects to those dabs need to be created, then they could obviously follow the pattern of redirects to articles. Either way, not 文 (currency) unless it's a non-disambiguation page that needs to be distinguished from the base name 文 page. -- JHunterJ 19:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  ... but (coming around to what I think you're getting at) a good reason to break that rule/guideline would be if there isn't a common transliterated representation of the term to be disambiguated. So 文 or 文 (disambiguation) if 文 is an article or a redirect to an article. -- JHunterJ 19:14, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  Since 文 doesn't exist yet, I agree that the disambig should be at 文 (not 文 (currency)).--Endroit 20:17, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  ...and no there isn't a common transliterated representation. The transliterations we have articles for (that I know of) are: wén, mon, and mun.--Endroit 20:21, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - We should keep in mind the contents of these pages, too, on the Japanese Wikipedia: 文, 文 (disambiguation). There is also a Wiktionary page. I can't speak for any pages on the Korean or either Chinese Wikipedia. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 02:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    I just looked around for 文, and here's what else I found:
    We have multiple instances of Chinese 文 transliterated as wén: King Wen of Zhou, Emperor Wen of Han, Emperor Wen of Liu Song, Wen Tianxiang, Wen Zhengming, Wen Zhenheng (from the DAB page Wen).
    
    There's a dab page zh:文 in the Chinese Wikipedia, but without so many entries.
    
    From Korean history, we have 文 transliterated as mun: Emperor Mun of Balhae.
    
    We even have a Japanese 文 transliterated as fumi instead of mon: Fumi Hirano.
    --Endroit 03:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, these solutions are acceptable to me:

文 (currency) as dab, and Mon (currency), Mun (currency), Wen (currency), Wén (currency) all redirect to 文 (currency).
Just link the three currencies in question under see also.

And I am against this solution:

文 because it can mean many things in Chinese (I speak the language). It most likely also means many things in the other two languages. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 07:35, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As I mentioned before, well-formed dab pages are titled without a parenthetical or with the parenthetical "(disambiguation)". And pages in general only use any parenthetical when there is already a page at the name without the parenthetical. The full list of things that 文 can mean in Mandarin, Cantonese, or other languages can be handled by Wiktionary -- the dab page is only needed for listing the Wikipedia articles that might have been titled that, not for listing all the definitions of a phrase. But if there are Wikipedia articles about other things that 文 is used for, they can be listed on the same dab page. There's no need for a separate dab page for the currency articles. -- JHunterJ 11:34, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion: See User:Endroit/文, a suggested dab page for 文. Any information in Mon (currency) should be merged into this page and renamed 文. Please feel free to modify it to conform to MOS:DAB.--Endroit 14:35, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I like this solution. It seems very well thought out. The only suggestion I have would be alphabetizing the list of people in order to keep it NPOV. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 15:25, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  Ordering by likelihood is NPOV, but often hard to reach consensus on. :-) I'd suggest chronological order, which is sometimes easier with names not in the Latin alphabet. -- JHunterJ 15:34, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  For "people", I just inherited the ordering from Wen (disambiguation) without much thought. Then I added Emperor Mun of Balhae chronologically after Emperor Wen of Liu Song, and added Fumi Hirano alphabetically before Wen Tianxiang. Sorry for messing up the order. I believe it would be easier to fix it chronologically.--Endroit 15:57, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Good job! --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 07:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.