Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shani Louk

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus to delete; moved to Kidnapping of Shani Louk. This discussion is dealing with multiple separate issues: whether Louk is notable as a person, whether having this article violates WP:BLP1E, and whether her kidnapping is notable. There is no clear consensus around all of these issues, and many !votes do not address many of them.

There is a clear consensus against having a biographical article specifically about Louk, but there is no consensus as to whether her kidnapping is notable, or if the article should be redirected or merged to Re'im music festival massacre or some other location. Therefore, I am moving the article to Kidnapping of Shani Louk, an option which has attracted significant support in this discussion and a concurrent RM (permalink). This close does not preclude renominating that article for deletion immediately, and such a discussion, if it occurs, will be much more focused than what this has become and will hopefully lead to a clearer consensus. (non-admin closure)‎ Elli (talk | contribs) 22:39, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Shani Louk

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Shani Louk (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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This article fails WP:BLP1E. Going through the criteria:

  • If reliable sources cover the person only in the context of a single event. checkY She has been covered only for having been kidnapped as part of the Re'im music festival massacre.
  • If that person otherwise remains, and is likely to remain, a low-profile individual. checkY She is a tattoo artist who has never been any sort of public figure.
  • If the event is not significant or the individual's role was either not substantial or not well documented. checkY Although the massacre as a whole is clearly significant, her role in it was not substantial, as she was one of hundreds of casualties. The use of or in the guideline means that this is sufficient to fulfill this criterion.

The video clip that made Louk famous is covered in a paragraph at Re'im music festival massacre, which is a sufficient level of detail for our encyclopedic purposes. This provides an additional WP:PAGEDECIDE/WP:NOTNEWS rationale for redirection beyond the BLP1E argument. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 21:00, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@ForsythiaJo, Teterev53, VintageVernacular, Alalch E., Agustin0110, Alousybum, and David O. Johnson: pinging those who have edited the page. RodRabelo7 (talk) 21:12, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete: Now we're going to see these memorial-type articles, like we did with the war in Ukraine... This person was not notable before the incident, they aren't notable at this point in time either. Very much a run of the mill individual Oaktree b (talk) 21:51, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:NOTMEMORIAL has very little to do with an article like this, that is about a globally covered topic. Further, notable does not always mean remarkable. It's a question of whether this person being the most famous victim of a major historic event, due to appearing in a viral video related to that event, seen all over the world, means that that the individuals's role [in the event] was [or was not] ... substantial (third bullet of BLP1E). To be clear, being a victim of an event is defined under WP:VICTIM as having a role in the event:

    Where there are no appropriate existing articles, the criminal or victim in question should be the subject of a Wikipedia article only if one of the following applies:

    For victims, and those wrongly accused or wrongly convicted of a crime (or crimes),

    1. The victim or person wrongly convicted, consistent with Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Subjects notable only for one event, had a large role within a well-documented historic event. The historic significance is indicated by persistent coverage of the event in reliable secondary sources that devote significant attention to the individual's role. /Example: Matthew Shepard./
    Being "one of hundreds of casualties" (quoting Sdkb) is not the same as "being the most recognizable out of hundreds of casualties due to having appeared in a viral video". This is very close to being WP:NOTBLP1E (it's possible to see the coverage of what happened or is happening to Louk as persistent coverage; example), and a much stronger reason for me to support redirection is that there are appropriate existing articles (which is really WP:PAGEDECIDE).—Alalch E. 01:11, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep and move to Kidnapping of Shani Louk. The event (of her kidnapping by itself) is clearly notable and has been described as one of the most shocking moments of the Hamas offensive by reliable sources.
Em um dos vídeos mais chocantes da ofensiva do Hamas sobre solo de Israel…
The 22-year-old tattoo artist was seen in one of the most distressing videos of the weekend bloodshed…
etc.
RodRabelo7 (talk) 00:01, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The first source linked above includes "confira também" (Google translate: check it out too) links to: "Influencer diz que não faz sexo há 2 anos porque homens se intimidam com beleza" (an influencer discussing her sex life) and "Estrela pornô preocupa ao atingir marca de 900 cenas após quase morrer em filme" (worries of a porn star), and a story about people eaten by a bear, so this seems to be a questionable and tabloid source; the second source listed is the WP:DAILYBEAST, which has no consensus for reliability and describes the event as "one of the most distressing videos of the weekend bloodshed." Beccaynr (talk) 03:46, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per many precedents for articles on victims that can be found in categories such as Category:Terrorism victims and Category:Murder victims. She is not just any casualty, but the one who has become the face of this conflict in media, comparable to Rachel Scott for the Columbine High School massacre. —Lowellian (reply) 01:06, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The Rachel Scott article was created on 25 November 2003, more than four years after her death, and listed as a potential candidate for deletion several minutes later [1]. By 29 November 2003, the article was updated to include a list of books published by her parents [2]. The current Rachel Scott article is much more developed and has related book and organization articles linked, and notes a film based on her life (2016 Guardian review). By contrast, there has only been a few days of sensationalized and repetitive news coverage available to support this article, which makes this article unbalanced; and according to WP:BLPBALANCE,

    The idea expressed in Eventualism—that every Wikipedia article is a work in progress, and that it is therefore okay for an article to be temporarily unbalanced because it will eventually be brought into shape—does not apply to biographies. Given their potential impact on biography subjects' lives, biographies must be fair to their subjects at all times.

    Beccaynr (talk) 03:15, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect to Re'im music festival massacre per BLP1E and WP:AVOIDVICTIM ("This is of particular importance when dealing with living individuals whose notability stems largely or entirely from being victims of another's actions"), as well as the limited information currently available, which is not sustained WP:GNG coverage nor sufficent to demonstrate enduring WP:EVENT notability at this time; this article should therefore also be excluded per WP:NOTNEWS. Beccaynr (talk) 02:20, 13 October 2023 (UTC) - add redirect target to comment Beccaynr (talk) 14:53, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    AVOIDVICTIM says: "When writing about a person noteworthy only for one or two events, including every detail can lead to problems—even when the material is well sourced. When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is completely sourced, neutral, and on-topic. This is of particular importance when dealing with living individuals whose notability stems largely or entirely from being victims of another's actions. Wikipedia editors must not act, intentionally or otherwise, in a way that amounts to participating in or prolonging the victimization." The issue is whether the coverage is sourced, neutral, and on-topic. It means "avoid secondary victimization (through poor coverage)", not "avoid writing about victims". —Alalch E. 04:08, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Coverage appears to be poor because it is limited, repetitive, and sensationalized, so WP:AVOIDVICTIM seems to further support a redirect in addition to the nom's rationale to pare this topic back to a neutral and on-topic summary at the redirect target. Characterizations of this subject as "the face of this conflict in media" or "one of the most shocking moments of the Hamas offensive" or "the most recognizable out of hundreds of casualties" do not appear well-supported by reliable secondary sources at this time. Beccaynr (talk) 04:27, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect to Re'im music festival massacre: Rationale per nom, and notability (of the event) should be passed on to the notability (of the subject) here. – robertsky (talk) 04:00, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I also note that the article was WP:BLAR before by the nom and was reverted by the author almost immediately, therefore the AfD here with the intent to redirect instead of delete I suppose. – robertsky (talk) 04:05, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move to Kidnapping of Shani Louk or redirect to Re'im music festival massacre § Hamas's assault. I'm between those two. While Shani Louk had many news articles dedicated to her in multiple languages, her story has not really developed enough to differentiate her from all the other kidnapped victims. I'm leaning towards redirecting to the festival massacre, and reassess the situation later if the situation develops. AdrianHObradors (talk) 08:54, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect to the music festival for now, per WP:BLP1E and WP:NOTNEWS. If additional sources appear in a few years, then we may want to reassess at that time. Russ Woodroofe (talk) 09:02, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Beccaynr: The Die Zeit piece is a retrospective piece about Shani Louk's case in the context of the broader hostage situation and has "Shani Louk" positioned on top of the title.—Alalch E. 16:45, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
From my view, the Die Zeit piece, based on a Google translation, seems to emphasize the limited information available about Louk at this time, and a focus on the broader hostage context without specific reference to Louk. The piece includes interviews with her family members, in the context of limited information available and various reasons why information is limited. Beccaynr (talk) 17:32, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The headline is not what you said, that is only the subheadline. The headline is "The desperate search for the smallest trace" next to a portrait of Louk's mother, clearly referencing the widely publicized case of Shani Louk. So widely publicized that there's no need to even state the name, but for those readers who have missed the news, there is "Shani Louk" spelled out on top of the headline. About 80% of the article is about her case. —Alalch E. 22:52, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for noting my error copying the title - I adjusted my comment above to fix it. Beccaynr (talk) 23:15, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome, thanks for the correction. —Alalch E. 23:39, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect to the Re'im music festival massacre, per above. Ornithoptera (talk) 07:03, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep An important international event, gained ginat public recongnizion around the world. dov (talk) 14:44, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep She has become a symbol linked to the attacks that occurred on the first day, more specifically to the Re'im music festival massacre. She is already relevant enough for her biography, which is also available in Portuguese and in simple English, to remain. I think it is correct to keep this article in Wikipedia, taking into account that we can also find biographies such as George Floyd or Omayra Sanchez (who were not public figures before their deaths, but became iconic figures that should be covered encyclopedically). Salvabl (talk) 00:45, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The suggestion that she may become a Floyd or Sanchez is classic WP:CRYSTAL. And other language editions is another notability fallacy called out at WP:Arguments to avoid. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 03:40, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. That is complete non argument and you seem to be drawing conclusions on evidence that doesn't exist. It is complete WP:OR. She is no more a symbol that any other person involved in this war and per above, it is a argument to avoid Wikipedia. scope_creepTalk 08:36, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your point, but I just mentioned Floyd and Sánchez to illustrate that it is not always necessary to be a public figure before. Determining/measuring the level of relevance is always difficult. Floyd's relevance and Sánchez's relevance are not at the same level; however, I consider that both require encyclopedic coverage. On the other hand, you have state that "She is no more a symbol that any other person involved in this war"; I respect your point of view, but I have to say that she (Shani Louk) is the only kidnapped person in this war whose name is known to me, because she has had a significant coverage, superior to the coverage that has been given to other civilians involved in this war. Salvabl (talk) 10:46, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No it is not. Professional historians would never create such an article like this, because it is far too soon to determine if she historically significant and that is reflected in how poor the references are.

Your statement make no sense and is a completly arbitary and non-standard way of looking at notability. The fact her name is known is not histrically significant and no reflected in modern history and how is it documented. scope_creepTalk 19:45, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete The references don't support this WP:BLP and its not a historically significant individual. It is seems to be a memorial type of article perhaps created by editor who has WP:COI . It is also a WP:BLP1E. All reason not have this type of article. Wikipedia is not a memorial site. The coverage is immediate and consists of affliate with very slim detail. Non of it can really WP:SECONDARY and none of it is historically signifcant. Fails WP:BIO, WP:SIGCOV. scope_creepTalk 08:36, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete and move to Kidnapping of Shani Louk. Had this been a one-off this article may have survived. However, she is one of thousands victimized in a major event and it is likely that she is not the only one undergoing the experiences described at this moment (consider every atrocity dispute in related talk pages). Borgenland (talk) 16:55, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Borgenland Hello, you've already !voted in this AfD (October 13). Please strike one or the other comment.—Alalch E. 17:03, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Gosh I totally forgot about that one. I’d like my first comment removed. Borgenland (talk) 17:28, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Don't worry about it. I've struck it. (I don't think it should be deleted entirely.)—Alalch E. 17:30, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move to Kidnapping of Shani Louk and Keep as her case has received significant publicity and global media coverage, more than any other single victim, making it notable.Jogarz1921 (talk) 08:17, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per BLP1E. Thanks ToeSchmoker (talk) 10:44, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep and move to Kidnapping of Shani Louk. In addition to the wide coverage this has received, including coverage on multiple national-level news broadcasts, editors claiming WP:BLP1E are wrong here. It must meet each of the 3 criteria for BLP. This fails criteria #3: "If the event is not significant or the individual's role was either not substantial or not well documented." Even weeks after the event, there is wide, ongoing, and sustained coverage in national and international coverage, including American international media German international media, [3], Brazilian media, among others. Not to WP:CRYSTALBALL, but I'm sure whenever news of her whereabouts surface, given the high-profile of her brutal kidnapping, there will be more sustained international coverage to augment here. Longhornsg (talk) 17:52, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The objection is that Louk's role in the Re'im music festival massacre was not substantial, not that it received no press coverage. We need to decide whether BLP1E still retains any power whatsoever as a bulwark against WP:NOTNEWS. Keep in mind that the example given at the policy page of an article to retain per criterion 3 is John Hinckley Jr., the guy who shot Reagan. Retaining an article on Louk, where your go-to example of "sustained coverage" is a Newsweek article (RSP-yellow) that adds essentially no new information that was not already known shortly after the kidnapping (the stuff cleanly summarized the paragraph at the massacre article), was absolutely not the intention of that criterion. If BLP1E is insufficient to prevent articles in textbook cases like this, it has been nullified to the point of uselessness. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 19:55, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    According to WP:RSP, WP:NEWSWEEK (the "American international media" link in the comment above) is now owned by IBT media, which "introduced a number of bad practices to the once reputable magazine and mainly focused on clickbait headlines over quality journalism," and the third link in the comment above is WP:BILD, listed at RSP as a generally-unreliable tabloid. The brief Brazilian coverage notes her German relatives, and repeats limited coverage about the video, limited biographical information reported by Der Spiegel, and limited information available about Louk's current status. The German news reporting includes ongoing coverage of her family members, reiterates the limited information currently available, and recycles reporting from the tabloid WP:THESUN. The source also discusses other missing and kidnapped people. Beccaynr (talk) 20:15, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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