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The result of the discussion was:Delete. Dana boomer (talk) 01:20, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Delete. Overcategorization. Also the title is inherently POV and there is no evidence that any of the people in this category, save perhaps Stalin and Beria, were "perpetrators" of the massacre. Most of them are political functionaries who appear to have bene added just because they were Soviet politicians around the time this took place. VoteJagoffForMayor (talk) 00:01, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
keep. "The functionaries" actually signed up shooting orders. You may argue that grandpa Kalinin would sign everything they'd bring to him, but the fact is, he did. And even if "the functionaries" are struck off this list, there's a bunch of very well involved NKVD men. East of Borschov 08:22, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
keep they approved "Lavrentiy Beria's proposal to execute all members of the Polish Officer Corps, dated 5 March 1940. This official document was then approved and signed by the Soviet Politburo, including Joseph Stalin." Category embraces also factual executors of this murder like Vasili Blokhin etc. Mathiasrex (talk) 11:55, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment -- Not a POV category, assuming that all persons can be shown to be complicit. However I hesistate in supporting its retention, on the basis that we cannot have categories for participation in every historical event. This may not strictly be an act of genocide, but it comes close to that. It is thus perhaps a weak keep due to the infamy of the event. Peterkingiron (talk) 23:25, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. I'm seeing some problems here. One article chosen at random, Bogdan Kobulov, does not even mention the Katyn Massacre. Neither does a second one, Anastas Mikoyan, also chosen at random. I don't think we would say this is defining for Josef Stalin, Lavrentiy Beria, or Vyacheslav Molotov. It looks like excessive focus on one incident to me. Good Ol’factory(talk) 23:23, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(ec)Delete. Personally, I fully support the view that the Katyn Massacre was a brutal war crime, but the significance of the event does not alone make for a good category. As demonstrated above, there is endless scope for argument about just how "involved" someone needs to be to merit categorisation as a "perpetrator" ... and however sincere the intentions of the category creators it is hard to avoid the impression that singling out any particular war crime as a defining characteristic of individuals looks like pushing a POV. I can find no similar category: the closest are Category:People indicted for war crimes and its subcat Category:People convicted of war crimes, but those categories share the characteristic of other criminal categories of recording a judicial process rather than an editorial judgement. This sort of topic is better covered by an article or a list. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 23:25, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per BHG. Categorization should always consider whether the characteristic which forms the basis of categorization ("Katyn massacre perpetrator") is defining for the subjects of the articles being categorized. For the people categorized in Category:Katyn massacre victims, for example, having been a victim of the massacre is certainly defining and there are enough articles on notable victims to justify a distinct category. For the perpetrators, the situation is different: almost all of the individuals—especially Beria, Kalinin, Mikoyan, Molotov, Stalin and Voroshilov—are known for things other than responsibility (in varying ways) for the Katyn massacre. Six of the 11 articles in the category do not even mention the massacre, and two of the remaining five offer only passing mentions. -- Black Falcon(talk) 18:05, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Major League Baseball pinch hitters[edit]
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. This is in Category:Major League Baseball players by position. Being a pinch hitter is not really a "position", it's just an occurrence in the game where a batter is inserted to hit in the place of another person. It's definitely not defining, as most non-pitchers have pinch hit at some time in their careers. Good Ol’factory(talk) 22:02, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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The result of the discussion was:rename to Category:Federalist Party politicians. There's no disambiguity on this subject on Wikipedia yet. If some comes up later, we can reconsider.--Mike Selinker (talk) 19:56, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale:Rename. My initial intention was to simply propose renaming this to match the standard format for politicians: "POLITICALPARTY politicians". The main article is at Federalist Party and the party category is Category:Federalist Party, so the category for politicians would be Category:Federalist Party politicians. This change was opposed at speedy rename because it was argued that "Federalist Party" is ambiguous (see copy of speedy discussion; as noted there, there have been other parties called the "Federalist Party", but they seem to be quite obscure, and they don't have WP articles). We need to decide whether we want to match the name to the main article or disambiguate to Category:Federalist Party (United States) politicians. Either option is fine with me. Good Ol’factory(talk) 21:30, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Parties that promote the political concept of federalism; and possible variant translations of the parties at Federal Party (disambiguation) (which are all translations of their actual names) 76.66.203.138 (talk) 06:06, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that's very convincing. Two of those listed at Federal Party (disambiguation) use the Spanish name Partido Federal, which clearly translates as Federal Party, not Federalist Party. Federalist Party would be Partido Federalista. They are two different words, in English and Spanish. The other party mentioned, the Sri Lankan one, is a redirect to Illankai Tamil Arasu Kachchi, which the article says translates into English as "Lanka Tamil State Party"; the article says in English it called itself the Federal Party. Could you provide an example of a specific political party that is reguarly referred to in English sources as the "Federalist Party"? I'm not aware of any. Good Ol’factory(talk) 07:20, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A cursory Google Scholar search turns up many parties that are politically federalist (Gscholar ... as well as [1][2] some news reports on "federalist party" (political concept) . 76.66.203.138 (talk) 09:02, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There was a Federalist Party in the Turkic regions [3][4] and Africa [5] . 76.66.203.138 (talk) 09:02, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, sounds good—nice research. Judging by the prominence of those parties, I'm not sure that confusion is likely to occur, but since it's theoretically possible I can go along with disambiguation. I'm not sure if it requires a full CFD to depart from the name of the main article; since the category currently disambiguated it's probably fine to just rename speedily to Category:Federalist Party (United States) politicians. Good Ol’factory(talk) 09:31, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support either move, but prefer Category:Federalist Party politicians. We don't have an article for any other Federalist Party, so although there are are similarly named parties there's no actual ambiguity for "Federalist Party". We should only introduce disambiguators when they're actually needed. Jafeluv (talk) 08:42, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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The result of the discussion was:rename. -- Black Falcon(talk) 01:42, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Closer's notes
After perusing the discussion, it seems to me that there is a conflict, in this situation, between two basic category naming guidelines:
A category's name should reflect the naming convention(s) used by related categories, especially the immediate parent category; and
A category's name should reflect the naming convention(s) used by the pages it contains.
On the whole, however, the consensus—of this discussion and the two requested move discussions at Talk:List of accolades received by Almost Famous—seems to support moving away from "awards" and "awards and {accolades/nominations}", at least for films. Additional discussion, and perhaps an RfC, at a centralized location probably would be useful in order to decide how to name these types of lists (and the categories that contain them) in general.
Nominator's rationale:Rename. Moved from speedy section. This same change was proposed in April 2010 (by me) but there was no consensus for it. I still think that on balance it's a good idea to make the change, though I'm not super enthusiastic for it. I opposed this change being made speedily, but ultimately I think I mildly support the change. Good Ol’factory(talk) 00:26, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I agree with making the change, but I proposed it in CFD awhile ago and there was no consensus to change it. It requires a full discussion. Good Ol’factory(talk) 04:41, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Odd. A quick look reveals that the membership all contain "accolade" in their titles, but the content of the articles barely ever repeat the word, but "award" occurs extensively. Accolade is more generic, first recorded uses referring to kisses to a newly bestowed (awarded) knight. Awards are usually the result of some competition. Mildly support. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:36, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as it is a subcategory of Category:Lists of awards by award winner and conforms with the titles of the other subcategories. Accolades is used in the subcategories because it includes nominations as well as awards. Category:Lists of awards by actor and the others use the simpler "awards and nominations" for their subcategories. Cjc13 (talk) 11:22, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. As SJ points out, what is clear is that "accolade" is a broader term than "award". What's not clear to me is why we would use the more narrow term when the contents of the category clearly contains material that conforms to the broader definition. Good Ol’factory(talk) 21:38, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Accolades" is a kind of uncommon, fancy word, but logically fits better. It feels like a contest between logic and WP:COMMONNAME. Category:Lists of awards and other accolades by film? Perhaps the awards (competitively won) and other accolades (lesser, courtesy awards) should be subdivided? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:35, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
An "accolade" can be neither an award nor an nomination for an award. For instance, being added to some publication's "recommended viewing" list; getting 5 stars from a movie reviewer; or getting two thumbs up from Ebert and his partner. Are these "awards"? Kind of, but not really. Good Ol’factory(talk) 20:38, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The actual lists appear to include only awards and nominations, eg academy and guild awards, rather than ratings fom reviewers etc. Cjc13 (talk) 22:50, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The NBR top ten list seems to be more like an "accolade" in this respect. However, it could probably be called an "award" since they give specific awards and include the top ten list in their list of "awards". I'm still not convinced that "awards and nominations" is somehow better than "accolades", though. It seems like we should use whatever the articles use. Good Ol’factory(talk) 22:54, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The NBR website uses the term "awards", including the top ten list.[6] "Awards and nominations" is the more common and precise term than "accolades" in regard to films. "Accolades" seems too vague and could lead to trivial comments about the films being included in the articles. Cjc13 (talk) 14:39, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Shouldn't editors get the article names changed first, then? Good Ol’factory(talk) 03:29, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And if so, why doesn't anyone ever want to do this? Good Ol’factory(talk) 01:40, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Dana boomer (talk) 14:20, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support because accolades not only include award wins and nominations but also recognition from film critics' circles, and presence on lists of critically acclaimed films (e.g., AFI's 100 Years…100 Movies). "Awards" or "Awards and nominations" is insufficient in that regard. Since all articles in this category use "accolades" in the title, it seems natural to make the category name consistent with the categorized topics. Erik (talk | contribs) 18:45, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Recognition from film critics' circles are usually in the form of nominations or awards. Presence on lists of critically acclaimed films is usually by nomination. Thus both types seem to be covered by awards and nominations. Cjc13 (talk) 22:04, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As I asked above—if it is thought "awards and nominations" is better than "accolades" then shouldn't editors get the article names changed first, then? What's the rationale for doing this back-to-front and changing the category name first? Don't category names usually follow the naming pattern of articles, especially when all the articles use a consistent name format? Good Ol’factory(talk) 22:27, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Are you suggesting that "nominations" is intended to be used equivocally? Either to mean that it was nominated for an award but not winning it, and to mean that it was nominated to be on a list of best films, minus any award terminology? Erik (talk | contribs) 17:14, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
These lists of best films could be considered nominations as they are compiled based on opinions rather than fact. The lists in the category seem to have been created primarily, and in many cases exclusively, to cover awards and award nominations. Few if any seem to include best film lists, apart from major annual lists from critics' societies which could be considered as awards. Cjc13 (talk) 00:30, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. The article names were changes earlier this year from "awards and nominations". I have now suggested a move to "awards and accolades for foo" to reflect that the main focus of the articles is awards, see Talk:List of accolades received by Almost Famous#Requested move 2. Cjc13 (talk) 11:11, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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The result of the discussion was:rename to Category:Dressage trainers, which seems to be the least objectionable option (of the ones proposed, that is). The issue of subjectivity hinges, I think, on whether the term "master" is being used subjectively to suggest importance or the phrase "dressage master" is a more-or-less accepted/recognized (by reliable sources) classification. -- Black Falcon(talk) 00:49, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale:A category for Equestrian masters who had great influence, good or bad, on modern riding. - I've no experience of the category system, but this seems a highly subjective subcategory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daytona2 (talk • contribs)
comment. Thanks for putting my request into standard format. The link from the CFD banner didn't do it and offered no clues as to how to format it. -- John (Daytona2 ·Talk ·Contribs) 09:53, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
comment. Yes your suggestion sounds good to me. -- John (Daytona2 ·Talk ·Contribs) 09:57, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
comment. You are correct that everyone on the list was a Dressage rider/trainer/instructor. The current category is an awkward term, (though that is how a lot of them referred to their predecessors, so it's more archaic than incorrect) so I would support renaming over deletion. Also, simply moving to Dressage riders doesn't quite fit, as most of these individuals were the "masters" of their field. (Several there are past directors of the Spanish Riding School, for example). "Dressage trainers" also doesn't quite convey the right status either, it would be like calling Horowitz a "classical piano player." I'd propose Category:Dressage masters or something similar -- a word that doesn't just mean "trainer" or "rider," but conveys that these are the people that the rest of us study, they wrote books, they had significant accomplishments, they trained outstanding riders and horses, etc... I'm not super hung up on the semantic details, but I hope this explanation helps everyone figure out the direction we need to go. Montanabw(talk) 03:07, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
comment. It's the degree of subjectivity which is the issue. Horowitz is indeed categorised as a classical piano player, he is also categorised under the notable industry recognition awards (eg Grammy) he has won and the levels of memberships of notable institutions (eg fellow, honorary) - can the same not be be done here ? What do the policies/guidelines say about it ? -- John (Daytona2 ·Talk ·Contribs) 21:32, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, here's what you need for cooking up a title. These people on the list were mostly noted as teachers, many wrote books, they are the folks who explained and defined the art of horsemanship. The ones in the Renaissance and Enlightenment periods would have been called "Masters" in a way akin to that of any other master artisan. (Some were also members of the nobility) The original category comment "good or bad" simply reflects that while most advocated humane treatment of horses, a few of them recommended some training methods that today we'd classify as horribly abusive, though in other respects they had good ideas...sort of like how Machiavelli contributed to Political Science. These guys were, if you will, the philosophers and teacher types...hope this helps. Montanabw(talk) 06:20, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Dana boomer (talk) 14:20, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Rename per East of Borschov retaining the option to split out the ones that belong in other dressage categories even if they need to be created. Clearly this discussion makes it clear that the current name is ambiguous. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:57, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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The result of the discussion was:delete both. — ξxplicit 02:54, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: These categories and their subcategories don't contain any articles, except one user page and some bot-generated pages that don't contain any useful information, and so I think all those categories should be deleted. Svick (talk) 14:08, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:People from Newark, Nottinghamshire[edit]
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The result of the discussion was:rename. — ξxplicit 02:54, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Rename to match title of parent article. Alansohn (talk) 17:25, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's rationale:Delete per WP:OC#EPONYMOUS, small category unlikely to grow. — ξxplicit 07:16, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete -- Nothing there but a picture, not even a main article. No content, thus not needed. Peterkingiron (talk) 23:17, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Buildings and structues in Liège (city)[edit]
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Nominator's rationale: There are many possible misspellings of categories, but this one now comes up on automated searches/dropdowns before any of the legitimate spellings. Jayjg (talk) 05:27, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete -- This is a misspelt category, which is not a cat-redirect. I doubt that it is serving any useful fucntion. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:20, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Massacres commited by the United Kingdom[edit]
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The result of the discussion was:speedy delete as creator request; as discussed, anyone can nominate Category:Massacres committed by countries and its subcategories, but they probably should be considered together as a group.Good Ol’factory(talk) 03:14, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Just a case of misspelling :). My apologies.--Darius (talk) 05:03, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is a very new category, which seems to be designed to attack the British state. Do half a dozen murders on one occasion constitute a massacre? Is our nominator going to give us "massacres by Northern Ireland paramilitaries" as well for balance? Does he believe that multiple murders of one family by the police were acts of the UK state, as opposed to the acts of angry police acting without orders, and contrary to official policy? Peterkingiron (talk) 16:29, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Speedy delete per WP:CSD#G6 as mis-spelt and empty. I share some of Peterkingiron's concerns about this sort of category, because although my reading of history is that many massacres have been committed by the United Kingdom, a POV problem arises in what constitutes a massacre. To play the old verb conjugation game, I conduct measured security operations, you cause excessive civilian casualties, and he massacres. That's why the list formerly called "list of massacres" was renamed at AfD as List of events named massacres (I closed the AFD, but the result has been stable for over 2 years). However, there is an existing cluster of similar categories under Category:Massacres committed by countries, and I can see no reason to single out one of the sub-cats for deletion; they should be taken together. So I suggest speedily closing this CFD, without prejudice to a group nomination to delete Category:Massacres committed by countries and its subcats. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 20:59, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's rationale: As far as I'm aware, we don't categorize songwriters or producers by record label, especially not mushed together into one category like this. From reviewing the contents of the category, I'd also say this is misleading, as many of these individuals simply contributed a written song or record production for Motown, some extensively, but aren't necessarily signed to the record label. — ξxplicit 02:17, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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The result of the discussion was:Rename. Dana boomer (talk) 01:25, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per main article. There are no other "Theravadas", "Mahayanas", or "Vajrayanas" so this can only refer to Buddhism. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:14, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Rename per main articles, and I guess the mainspace guideline WP:PRECISION could be applied as well. jonkerz♠ 23:50, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep for clarity; extra clarity is often desirable in category names. WP:PRECISION is about article titles not category names. Johnbod (talk) 13:55, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep these are frequently referred to in this manner. Also per Johnbod. 76.66.203.138 (talk) 07:33, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Rename. The articles are called just Vajrayana, Mahayana and Theravada, and there's no possible confusion there. Article naming conventions also apply to category names. Jafeluv (talk) 07:28, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Rename per Jafeluv. Since the names are unique, the category names ought to match the article titles. I see the opposing point about clarity as the terms "Mahayana", "Theravada" and "Vajrayana" are not particularly meaningful to readers who are unaware of these branches of Buddhism. However, the title "Mahayana Buddhism", for instance, is not much more informative—yes, it ties the topic to Buddhism but provides no information about the nature of the association. -- Black Falcon(talk) 18:29, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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