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August 17[edit]

Category:Geometry educators[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 20:54, 17 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Redundant to Category:Mathematics educators and Category:Geometers. The Legend of Zorro 21:02, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - No Merge - On the one hand, there is nothing intrinsically "redundant" about this category, any more than Category:Mathematics educators is redundant to Category:Mathematicians. The real problem is that, as far as I can see, of the 3 people who are listed, only one is/was perhaps properly considered to have been a "Geometry educator". That would be Olaus Henrici, who authored two books on the subject. Neither of the others appears to qualify. Unfortunately, the category's creator ceased editing 3 years ago, and thus won't be able to share his/her thoughts. However, I have invited User:Favonian to participate in their place. Cgingold (talk) 08:40, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • merge to Mathematics educators per nom.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:59, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge per nom.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:07, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Polish coma patients[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Coma patients. Good Ol’factory (talk) 20:55, 17 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: upmerge to Category:Coma patients, as this is too specific a category to ever have enough articles. Mercurywoodrose (talk) 20:55, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge no reason to split a category this small by nationality.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:20, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Upmerge -- With under a dozen articles there is no need for a national split. This should be a merge nom, not a delete nom. Peterkingiron (talk) 12:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment from proposer: I am fine with merge, if it preserves any data that delete doesnt. I think i understand the subtleties here. I dont think we need a redirect to remain as its such an unlikeley search term for a category.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 02:05, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Films by Winsor McCay[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. Good Ol’factory (talk) 20:58, 17 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per the naming convention for all categories within Category:Films by director nationality Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 16:44, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The issue with this is that in the case of all ten of McCay's films, without exception, McCay was not just the director, but also the sole writer, sole producer, and sole or primary animator. Curly Turkey (gobble) 22:04, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
So he still directed them. End of. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 07:52, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, and the category as-is perfectly covers his directorship. "End of". Curly Turkey (gobble) 09:10, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well you're wrong, son. The naming convention for all films by director is, suprisingly, "Films directed by x". Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 13:48, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"you're wrong, son" is an argument? Good luck building a consensus, there. Curly Turkey (gobble) 09:11, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep McCay was more than just the director of the films, he essentially was the main creative force at every level.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:21, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That WP:OR can be applied to any number of film director who was the "creative force". Why should this be different to all the other categories in the structure, John? Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 07:55, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OR? Give it a break! Read the articles, they're reffed to the hilt. Curly Turkey (gobble) 09:11, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There is "significant overlap" in the case of Judd Aptow. In Mcay's case, the overlap is 100% for: production, direction, animation, and script. As in not a single exception. Curly Turkey (gobble) 03:48, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, that was me - I just realised that Woody Allen didn't have a "Screenplays by..." category, so created it. Then got sidetracked! --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:58, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
All should now be showing. --Rob Sinden (talk) 14:26, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename per nom, so as to fit in within the preexisting and extensive category structure. We should not concoct entirely new schema which would have vast implications, for Winsor McCay. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:19, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Please explicate those "vast implications". I wasn't aware there was a huge number of filmmakers whose entire oeuvres were one-man shows, right down to the financing. Curly Turkey (gobble) 03:37, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Badgering all the opposers, on a category you've created, is greatly helping your cause. Why hasn't anyone thought of this before? As for this "one man shows" idea, you'll find many animated shorts created by auteur animators that remain categorized as "films directed by foo," precisely because this is a vast and well-established structure. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 03:40, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • "Badgering"? I asked a question. The proposer proposed this category renaming in the midst of an edit war over formatting and other issues of an FAC, for which he was admonished by an admin. The category as-is is already categorized under "Films by American directors", so what would this move accomplish? Make-work? Curly Turkey (gobble) 03:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
            • Everything "makes work", so yet another redundant statement by yourself. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 09:40, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
              • Unbelievable. You waited eight days to drop a pointlessly lame ad hominem while demonstrating you have no idea what either "make work" or "redundant" mean. Curly Turkey (gobble) 12:27, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, you have no idea on how things work around here regarding category structures. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 13:36, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I don't have much experience with "Categories for discussion", but is it normal to experience this level of hostile condescension from the participants? I'm talking about User:Lugnuts and User:Shawn in Montreal. At the time I responded to Shawn, the only other editor I had responded to was Lugnuts, who was openly hostile, yet Shawn has accused me of "badgering all the opponents". Curly Turkey (gobble) 04:09, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You should probably look at the category structure next time, before adding your !Vote keep as is without any research. Thanks. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 08:25, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Or you could look at the content of the article and avoid mindless makework projects. Either way, there's no excuse for your sustained hostility here and elsewhere. Curly Turkey (gobble) 09:21, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Checking out elsewhere on this page, I can see I'm not the only recipient of Lugnuts' "love". Curly Turkey (gobble) 09:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The structure of Films by director is pretty clear. I have no idea why you would go against the consensus. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 09:44, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The issue isn't the structure of Films by director, and consensus doesn't happen without discussion. "You're wrong, son" isn't "discussion" by even the broadest definitions of the term. Curly Turkey (gobble) 09:49, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Besides, you've demonstrated amply that you haven't the beginning of a clue as to what consensus is about. Curly Turkey (gobble) 10:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
But it is, as per the discussions from the other users, above. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 09:51, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename I have become convinced that directed is standard enough that we should rename this.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:25, 31 August 2013 (UTC)----[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Egyptian civil war[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete: WP:SNOW and WP:CSD#G5. Also, Wikipedia:CSD#C1 will no doubt come into effect in a few days, too. JamesBWatson (talk) 10:00, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Created solely to characterize the recent coup and violence of the last few days as a civil war. This is clearly contrary to policy as original research: no reliable sources are currently describing this as a civil war. -- Chronulator (talk) 09:48, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

English cricketers[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: keep. (NAC) Armbrust The Homunculus 15:39, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: These arbritary categories are not defining to the individual player. WP:DEFINING states "if the characteristic would not be appropriate to mention in the lead portion of an article, it is probably not defining". Looking at any biography within these categories fails to demonstrate why the individual is notable for playing during the given timespans. For example, it is complelty trivial that someone played in 1968 and into 1969 to be categorised into the last two categories. These easily fail WP:OC#OVERLAPPING, WP:OC#ARBITRARY and WP:OC#TRIVIAL. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 09:05, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep – I doubt whether these dates are arbitrary; instead I expect they correspond to eras in English cricket. It would certainly be helpful if some text or link could be added to each category to explain the provenance of the dates. The era in which a cricketer played is certainly defining. Oculi (talk) 10:48, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Agree it's defining to the game, but not it is not defining to the player. Can you explain how they are defining to the individual? Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 11:49, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep – The dates do indeed represent specific events or changes that happened within the structure of English cricket and that can and should be clarified. The later date categories tend to be under-populated because there are other defining categories, such as the teams that individual cricketers played for, that have been more widely used. For the four earlier timespans, where teams were often very much ad hoc, these categories are a primary and useful aid to sorting and to reading. Johnlp (talk) 11:35, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Oculi. These categories do indeed correspond to periods in English cricket, and the nominator's description of them as "arbitrary" indicates a failure to do some basic research. The fact that a player played in one period rather than the other is indeed WP:DEFINING. I don't know why the nom thinks that having played from 1701–86 rather than 1946–68 is a trivial characteristic, and I look fwd to seeing the explanation for that surprising view.
    The parent categories (Cat:English cricket seasons from 1919 to 1945 etc) were kept at CFD 2012 April 18. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:06, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's trivial to the individual. Can you not see that? Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 12:37, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, I don't see anything remotely trivial in the difference between being a English cricketer in 1796 and being a English cricketer in 1945. You may regard a gap of two centuries and the passage of the industrial revolution as a trivial matter, and you are entitled to that interesting view of the irrelevance of history. However, I don't share that view. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:26, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well said, BHG. His condescending attitude is immature and totally unacceptable. ----Jack | talk page 08:58, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - but is there some justification for putting extra text at the top of each category for the justification behind each split in years - if a layman were to come along and say "1826 to 1863? Slightly arbitrary dates, no?" - perhaps the extra information would be useful. Bobo. 02:15, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I'm not very well-experienced in this section of the site - which are more common, category splits or category merges? Surely the perpetual argument of "Keep"/"Delete" is based on the entire reason why these "Keep"/"Delete" arguments exist in the first place. The people who are pro-category merges will always say "Well, it keeps the need for navigation down to a minimum", while the people who are anti-category merges will say "But then all the people in each category is in a list which is as small a list as those who are interested in said category/ies would ever have the energy/desire to search through". My point is, what we're arguing for/against at the moment is precisely the reason the category splits happened in the first place - ease of navigation for those who don't feel like searching through a list which even now reads at over 9,500 names. Bobo. 02:57, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep. We have been through all of this at WT:CRIC: see Wikipedia talk:CRIC#Category_question. The proposal is based on an ambiguous ruling which can only be applied in conditions amounting to pedantry and, as I pointed out to the nominator at CRIC, with any of these rulings there is always another one with complete polarity. So what do we do? I would suggest that WP:COMMONSENSE is the guideline to be applied here because the categories exist to provide our readers (remember them?) with useful navigation and search facilities. Now there is a point to note and it is that the "later" categories are nowhere near complete, but the two earliest ones are entirely complete as all notable cricketers in those eras have articles and all those articles are included in the 1787 and 1825 categories. Which is where they should be because the value to a reader of, for example, the 1787 category is that if he wants to find articles about players in the pre-Lord's, pre-MCC era of the sport he has a comprehensive list to work from. What is the point of simply lumping all English cricketers into one huge, overwhelming category? How does that help a reader who is interested in a particular era (e.g., the roundarm era, the inter-war period, the Twenty20 period, etc.)? Not one bit. True, the categories need to be completed and the CRIC project is gradually working towards that in the same way that we eventually hope to have an article about every first-class player. Rome wasn't built in a day. I would confirm that the "eras" have been delimited by watersheds in the game's history: Oculi made a good suggestion that these should be briefly described on each category page and I've just updated them. But the key point as raised above by BHG (who can see very well) is that the impact of these watersheds on the cricketers themselves has been a "defining" experience. It is therefore most important that each article states the span of a player's career (admittedly, some do not do so and they need attention) and that the players are categorised by era. Taking two Hampshire players as examples, the fact that John Small was active in the Hambledon era is highly significant and defines him in a completely different way to the fact that Malcolm Marshall was an overseas member of the Hampshire team during the limited overs era. These two, by the way, are two of the greatest players of all time, but comparisons are useless because of the different (indeed, chalk and cheese) eras they played in. ----Jack | talk page 09:11, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments. I've just taken a good, long look at WP:DEFINING and it really is a piece of tedious, bureaucratic, pedantic claptrap. Editors interested in these categories should be aware of certain statements in this alleged "guideline" which the nominator has conveniently overlooked. First, it is not mandatory because, even when certain characteristics are non-defining, the guideline states only that they "should be avoided", not "must be avoided". So, for starters, failure to comply with this specific guideline is NOT a reason to delete the categories.
It then goes on to ambiguate itself completely by saying: "It is sometimes difficult to know whether or not a particular characteristic is "defining" for any given topic, and there is no one definition that can apply to all situations". Words like "probably" recur. Dearie me!
But then, and this is essentially the point which BHG so perceptively outlined above, it says: "a defining characteristic is one that reliable, secondary sources commonly and consistently define, in prose, the subject as having". Okay, cricket histories and biographies without exception dwell very heavily upon the era in which a specific player was active. Read any of the sources talking about John Small and his association with Georgian England, Hambledon, underarm bowling, invention of the straight bat, scorer of the first-ever first-class century, his part in the introduction of the maximum bat width, his part in the introduction of the middle stump, etc., etc. are unavoidable and, hence, the period in which he played (i.e., nearly the whole second half of the 18th century) is the single most defining factor of his career. Yes, he is the first player who has been considered to be a "master batsman" but every historian who has judged him as such has done so in the context of the period in which he played and that is because cricket in the Georgian underarm era was a completely different ball game to the one played by the 2013 master batsman Ian Bell. In a similar vein, the fact that Bell plays in the era of Twenty20 with Test cricket dismissals subject to optional technological reviews defines him in a way unthinkable for a former master batsman like Geoffrey Boycott, now a commentator, who played his career in an era that was alien to both Small and Bell alike. Therefore, the era in which a cricketer was active is most certainly a factor that defines his individual career. ----Jack | talk page 10:40, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Herein lies the beauty of the WP:CRIN guidelines. Has this individual participated in a First-Class/List A match? Nope? Out. Yep? In. Let's apply the same situation to soccer. At what point do we define "fully professional" and "semi-professional"? After all these years I still have no clue as to which of the leagues in the 200 countries for which I have soccer statistics would qualify as "fully professional". With cricket, it's simple - and, in spite of anyone's claims to the contrary, doesn't fly in the face of WP:BIO, either! An equivalent argument I like to use is the one for Alec Douglas-Home - if his article were to come up at AFD, our argument against deletion could equally as validly be "played first-class cricket". Cricket coverage on Wikipedia is not the "walled garden" that some like to think it is - it just happens to be better covered in publicly available sources - if the same were true of soccer, I would be able to go online and find out if my Uncle Johnny really *did* play for Accrington Stanley in 1897... Bobo. 13:23, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep but clarify - Although I do not play cricket, I would agree that the era an athlete played in is important if the rules or other aspects of the game changed from time to time. That's a good reason to keep these categories. However, the category names don't indicate this importance to the ordinary Wikipedia reader. If these eras have names, would it be clearer if they were included? Using one mentioned above, should the category be "English cricketers of the Georgian underarm era, startdate - enddate"? Then the significance would be obvious, and if a cricketer was listed in more than one such category, that would be interesting information in itself. —Anne Delong (talk) 12:58, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Reply. That's interesting, Anne, as cricket literature does sometimes use names for periods such as the Hambledon era (broadly c.1764 to 1786); the roundarm era which began about 1826, more properly 1827, and effectively ended when overarm bowling was legalised in 1864; and the so-called "Golden Age" which is supposed to have been 1890 to 1914. The trouble is that these names are arbitrary and the exact periods uncertain. Many writers taking a realistic (or unromantic) view deny that there ever was such a thing as a golden age (how could there be when so many contemporary people lived in poverty and slums?). Did Hambledon really deserve an era all to itself when there equally good clubs in Kent and Surrey at the same time? The only one that does stand up is roundarm but, again, there were still a large number of underarm bowlers all through the roundarm years. As for the one you quoted, it wasn't just Georgian as the first professionals are believed to have been hired in the post-Commonwealth latter-day Stuart period. The only thing we can do is note the watersheds which delimit spans of years and I updated the descriptions of those on each category page earlier. ----Jack | talk page 17:33, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The era in which someone played their cricket defines, to greater and lesser extents, the style in which they played, the kit they wore and the rules they played by. The Cat system we have in place is the result of mature consensus and deleting it does nothing but harm the project. --Dweller (talk) 22:30, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep These year ranges are rather specific to specific styles of play / rules variations in the sport and are an appropriate defining characteristic to be used to group individuals who played in the same era, as well as being the means by which external sources categorize participants. The year ranges are separated by an average of almost 40 years, with the minimum being 25 years, meaning that most players will have their careers in one or perhaps two categories, with very few people who cross three ranges. The category pages do a good job of explaining the distinctions between these periods. Alansohn (talk) 02:07, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep -- The rationale for the periods, as expressed at Wikipedia talk:CRIC#Category_question should be set out in headnotes. With this categorisation by period, any attempt at splits by century needs to be stamped on hard. Peterkingiron (talk) 12:28, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:1871 establishments in Oklahoma[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename. While the consensus to rename was clear, the target was not. If I selected the wrong target (the Indian Territory), feel free to renominate. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:52, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Related to the below Oklahoma Territory nomination this might be a better name for Indian Territory. Tim! (talk) 08:26, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename per nom. Oklahoma did not exist at the time.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:53, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well yeah but "Indian Territory" (or "Indian territory") is also a generic term meaning "Territory occupied and/or controlled by American Indians", and I suppose some number of our readers would take it as such, and in 1871 that would include places like Montana and so forth. The advantage of using Category:1871 establishments in Oklahoma is that the reader will understand "OK, it was established in 1871 in that area bounded on the east by Arkansas and Missouri, on the north by Kansas, on the northwest by Colorado, on the far west by New Mexico, and on the south and near-west by Texas" which is true. So you gain geographic accuracy in return for the loss of political accuracy. Not sure it's worth the trade-off (it might be) so I'm not gonna vote but just pointing that out. Herostratus (talk) 05:09, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Next you will be arguing for Category:1871 establishments in Israel over Category:1871 establishments in the Ottoman Empire because the later is more specific. When things are named wrong, their specificity is not important. In 1871 there were defined limits to Indian Territory, and it was a distinct and clear place. There was a Montana Territory in 1871, so it clearly was not Indian Territory.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:28, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:1890 establishments in Oklahoma[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename. Vegaswikian (talk) 01:39, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: There's a mixture of Oklahoma and Oklahoma Territory being used for the period 1890–1907, so it should be decided which to use. Tim! (talk) 08:12, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename To Oklahoma Territory, however we should also put those things that happened in the separate Indian Territory into the appropriate categories.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:54, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • REname all pre-1907 categories to Oklahoma Territory, but the parent should remain an Oklahoma category. We categorise by contemporary polities. Peterkingiron (talk) 12:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - It might also be a good idea to do a soft redirect from Oklahoma to Oklahoma territory so it doesn't continue to get recreated. Kumioko (talk) 16:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Female film directors[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Merge. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 17:29, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Somalilander[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Keep. Dana boomer (talk) 22:40, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Propose deleting:
Nominator's rationale: No such nationality. Somaliland is internationally recognized as an autonomous region of Somalia. As such, the parameter is already covered by Category:Somalian Muslims and Category:Somalian athletes, respectively, per WP:COP. Middayexpress (talk) 00:25, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, Somaliland is not a de facto indepedent nation. The secessionist administration there doesn't control almost 40% of the territory it claims (see Khatumo State and Awdalland). Like Puntland, the region is legally and functionally a Federal Member State within the Federal Republic of Somalia. If the categories are to be salvaged, they would have to be categorized under their parent country (Somalia), like the Tibet categories are under their own parent country (China). Middayexpress (talk) 01:35, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Modern Tibet is completely under the control of China, so is not comparable. Mongolia is claimed by the Republic of China as a rebellious part of its territory. And if you're talking control, Somalia does not control most of the country, so how can it be a country under your standard? -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 05:04, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Please see below. Middayexpress (talk) 14:41, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment nationality is a tricky matter, just because not many people recognize the country does not mean it does not exist. Somaliland contains the structures of independent government and operates independently, so is a defacto country. It is a self-declared independent one, which has not been successfully challenged by the national Somali government. Look at Taiwan, which Wikipedia treats as a country, but which has not declared independence and whose government claims to be part of China. Or Tibet in the late 19th - early 20th century which was claimed by the Qing Empire, but with which the British treated as a separate country. Or the parts of Georgia outside of national control and treated as independent by Russia. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 05:02, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Somaliland's only claim to nationhood is that it has de facto control of its claimed territory, which it in fact does not. Its claimed boundaries are vied with other autonomous regions within the Federal Republic of Somalia. On the other hand, Somaliland's parent country Somalia is internationally recognized as a nation regardless of whether or not it has a secessionist movement within its legal borders. At any rate, the constitution of Somalia permits Somaliland, Puntland, and Somalia's other constituent Federal Member States considerable autonomy, including the right to have their own foreign policies and security forces. This is the actual reason why Somalia's central government in Mogadishu doesn't seek to rein in their autonomy, except with respect to national assets (like the airspace, which the federal government has now reassumed control of from a UN caretaker body [1]). Middayexpress (talk) 14:41, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • keep both. We have equivalent entries such as Kosovan and Palestinian even though both lack international recognition. Pass a Method talk 08:39, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Unlike Kosovo and the State of Palestine, Somaliland doesn't have any recognition at all as a separate entity. It is internationally recognized as an autonomous region of Somalia. Palestinians and Tibetans are also ethnic groups unto themselves. By contrast, "Somalilanders" are just people from the autonomous Somaliland region in northwestern Somalia, just as "Puntlanders" are people from the autonomous Puntland region in northeastern Somalia. The actual predominant ethnic group in both regions and much of the rest of the country is the same (i.e. ethnic Somalis). A more appropriate analogy would be Transnistria, which also has no international recognition as a separate country. Its categories are thus all grouped under its parent country of Moldova. Middayexpress (talk) 14:41, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep for anyone who self-categorizes as "Somalilander" the alternative category may be problematic. During the pre-WW II Olympics, Koreans were "officially identified" as Japanese - though it is clear that "self-identification" was Korean. Best practice is to use the term the persons themselves use. Collect (talk) 14:28, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Koreans and Japanese are separate ethnic groups. On the other hand, ethnic Somalis from the Somaliland region and ethnic Somalis from other parts of Somalia are not. Middayexpress (talk) 14:41, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Japan considered Koreans to be Japanese - and required they compete under their Japanese names. Example thus fails. BTW, ethnicity != nationality - Austrians are not Germans last I checked. Default is thus to use what the person self-identifies as. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:14, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It makes no difference what nationality the Japanese considered the Koreans. They are still separate ethnic groups. "Somalilanders" are for the most part ethnic Somalis (that's an ethnicity, not a nationality), like most "Puntlanders" and other residents of Somalia. Middayexpress (talk) 15:54, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep but rationalise the naming. Somaliland and Puntland are autonomous (but internationally unrecognised) fragments from the disintegration of Somalia. As such, there can be no internationally recognised nationality. However, we have 1000s of categories for "people from foo". These are of the same kind. I do not consider Somililander a satisfactory adjective, and would prefer to rename Category:Sunni Muslims from Somaliland and Category:Athletes from Somaliland. This form avoids the difficult question of the legal status of the polity. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:23, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Constitutionally, Somaliland and Puntland are autonomous Federal Member States within the Federal Republic of Somalia. The Fooian template also pertains to nationality and subnational entities, which would still require a disambiguation qualifier in parentheses: "To avoid ambiguity, some nationalities are listed as "People of Foo" instead of "Fooian"; for example, "Georgian people" could mean either Category:People from Georgia (country) or Category:People from Georgia (U.S. state)." Since Somalia like the United States is a federation, this would mean that Category:Athletes from Somaliland and Category:Sunni Muslims from Somaliland would have to be moved to Category:Athletes from Somaliland (Somalian state) and Category:Sunni Muslims from Somaliland (Somalian state), respectively. Ditto Puntland (e.g. Category:Sunni Muslims from Puntland (Somalian state)) and the other Federal Member States. Middayexpress (talk) 17:19, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm slightly confused by your suggestion. Why do we need (Somalian state)? As far as I know there is only one Somaliland. Unless I'm mistaken I don't think you're proposing we make seperate categories for 'people from Somaliland (Somalian state)' or 'people from Somaliland (self declared independent state)' which IMO would be unnecessarily confusing anyway. If there is only one likely meaning of Somaliland (without getting in to whether it's an independent state or automonous region), then there's no need for disambiguation is there? Ditto for Puntland. Similar to Category:People from Texas or Category:People from Selangor. To be clear, in a case like this, the people from Somaliland category should probably be a subcategory of Somalian people etc so it isn't exactly neutral but nor is the alternative. (We could of course do both and restrict the Somalilander category to people who selfidentify as being from the independent state of Somaliland but this may be unnecessarily confusing.) Nil Einne (talk) 00:22, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. "Somalilander" is not an adjective. Good Ol’factory (talk) 11:20, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    reply Several sources use it as an adjective, i.e. [2], [3] Pass a Method talk 11:46, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    The first is not really an example of an adjective; it's more of a compound noun. Regarding "Somalilander music", what can I say? The author is an illiterate. If that's the general usage, OK—but it does make a bad impression. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:38, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete 1st there is no more a nation of Somaliland than there is of Texas. 2nd there are no reliable sources that people who live in areas controlled by or claimed by Somaliland self-identify as Somaliland people rather than, in contrast to, and to the exclusion of, as Somali people. 3rd the examples of Kosovo, Tibet, and Palestine, all have reliable sources showing 2, and hence are strawmen examples. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 07:52, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment there has most definitely been a country called Texas. We even have a category hierarchy for it Category:Republic of Texas, Texas was not recognized to be independent by Mexico, either. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 13:14, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep based on the I'm seeing the selfidentification used in a bunch of non RS which has also been pick up by a few possible RS e.g. [4] and possibly [5]. However it seems clear the concept is controversial [6] [7] so I would suggest great care be taken in the addition of people to categories of this sort. In particular, we should ask for more than simple birth in Somaliland. I just removed someone where there was no supporting stuff in the article and the discussions held before the addition show a lack of any real sourcing. We should also use care in any description of this categories, it seems most people who use it use it to mean from Somaliland the independent country as distinct from Somalian but it's also possible some people use it to mean from Somaliland the autonomous region so they may consider themselves both a Somalilander and a Somalian. The alternative is to follow the people from X which reduces these concerns (although we should still take care to ensure the people are actually related to Somaliland in some way which seems unclear for the case where I removed someone). Nil Einne (talk) 00:06, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Misuse of a category is not an argument against it. I have found multiple people in American categories where there was no evidence in the article they were Americans, sometime the article explicitly called them Canadians for example.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:12, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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