Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 July 16

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July 16[edit]

Category:Organizations based in Nigeria[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: rename using "z".

For reference, there was recently an RFC at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#RFC:_spelling_of_"organisation"/"organization"_in_descriptive_category_names, seeking a general policy as suggested below, but it proved inconclusive. – Fayenatic London 13:07, 3 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming under one of the following options:

Retain "z" - "Organisations" to "Organizations" (rename 22)

Use "s" - "Organizations" to "Organisations" (rename 28)

There has been a series of cfds on this topic started by User:Od Mishehu in 2017, the premise being that a given country should use either 'z' or 's' consistently (not a mixture thereof). Oculi (talk) 19:14, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

List of previous outcomes

France, 2017, retain 'z'
Brazil, 2017, retain 's'
Bolivia, 2017, retain 's'
Iran, 2017, retain 's'
Angola, 2017, retain 'z'
Greece, 2017, retain 'z'
Poland, 2017, change 'z' to 's'
Israel, 2017, retain 'z'
Puerto Rico, 2017, retain 'z'
Turkey, 2017, retain 'z'
Macedonia, 2017, retain 'z'
Palestinian territories, 2017, retain 'z'
Sweden, 2018, retain 'z',
Iraq, 2019, change 's' to 'z',
East Timor, 2019, change 's' to 'z'
Haiti, 23 June 2019, change 's' to 'z',
Ukraine, 19 June 2019, open

Retain "z" - "z" is the status quo. Category:Organizations based in Nigeria has been stable since it was renamed from Category:Nigerian organizations at cfd in June 2006 and no-one has been sufficiently exercised (or exercized) to suggest a rename at cfd; see the page history.

Moreover the official government site www.nigeria.gov.ng yields 180 hits for 'z' and 30 for 's'. (English is one of Nigeria's official languages.) Oculi (talk) 19:14, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

- Yes, with many of those hits being the names of international organisations with branches in Nigeria. The government's own agencies exclusively use "S". Grutness...wha? 04:32, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is not in fact true. Google today gives 157 hits ("similar ones omitted"), 9 of which are for named international Organizations. In contrast of the 30 hits for 'organisation', 15 are for specific named organisations, some misspelt (eg "Other organizations like the World Health Organisation"). So I get to 140:15. Oculi (talk) 09:44, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It is however a good point so I have improved the search by using 'realize': 31 hits for 'z' and 4 for 's'. This also shows that 'ize' is in fact used in NZ despite strenuous denials. Oculi (talk) 15:36, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I can categorically state that it is not, working as I do as an editor and proofreader in New Zealand. Which gives you some indication why you should rely on the knowledge of people who have worked in particular countries rather than relying only on the often misleading use of google hits. It' also worth noting that many countries use a mix of US and British spellings, so calculating whether a country uses "realise" or "realise" is no indication of whether they use "organisation" or "organization". Some countries use a mix of US and UK spellings for different purposes — e.g., the use of "programme" to refer to a schedule and "program" to refer to computer software. Something similar is true with Nigeria — the term "organisatio"n refers to an agency or group; "organization" is used for the process of sorting or gathering things together. Thus, in Nigeria, you might be involved in the organisation of a government organisation. That is clear if you do a google search on those terms as well. Grutness...wha? 12:34, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Look at it this way. I've happily supported - even nominated - moves to US spelling for places which use US spelling. I've also happily gone along with the majority in cases where there is no clear indication of local usage. Why do you think I'm doing the opposite here? As I said, I have family history connected with Nigeria. Do you seriously think I would go against the flow so strongly here if I didn't know what the local usage in Nigeria was? Grutness...wha? 18:17, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Retain "z" - it appears that there is not any clear local usage preference so I think we should follow the main Category:Organizations in the absence of any good reason not to. I expect people will talk about the influence of the Commonwealth, but I have not seen any evidence that the Commonwealth exercises - or wishes to exercise - any influence over local spellling practice. Rathfelder (talk) 19:47, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Local usage preference is for an S. My father worked in Nigeria for several years and will confirm. Grutness...wha? 04:32, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly standardize, with a preference for 'z' since 'z' is acceptable both in British and American English. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:29, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Excluding one dictionary (albeit an influential one), the "z" is not accepted in Commonwealth English other than as a misspelling. Grutness...wha? 04:32, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Standardise with an S. African countries in general tend to British English (or in many cases continue to use the identical French spelling) in their spelling. I suggest you follw the lead of Nigeria's government, which uses the S for its agencies. Grutness...wha? 04:49, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- - American_and_British_English_spelling_differences#Usage refers to a source stating a 60%-40% distribution of s/z in British English. That is not an overwhelming majority. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:43, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    - We're not talking British English, we're talking Nigerian English. Grutness...wha? 06:29, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Retain "z" which is acceptable in both variants and less likely to cause any confusion. – Ammarpad (talk) 09:21, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Excluding one dictionary (albeit an influential one), the "z" is not accepted in Commonwealth English other than as a misspelling. Grutness...wha? 04:32, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Can you give evidence for this assertion? Rathfelder (talk) 15:21, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
See every other CfD dealing with -ize/-ise and Commonwealth English. Grutness...wha? 06:29, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Those discussions were full of assertions but lamentably short of evidence. Rathfelder (talk) 22:55, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Establish a general policy on this - The use of Z is fundamentally an Americanism. S is the preferred spelling in British English, though dictionaries (whose purpose is to inform, not to dictate) acknowledge the Z spelling. I have published articles in British academic periodicals. Where instructions are given on the issue, they invariably ask for the S-spelling. I would accordingly suggest that for English speaking countries, the question is whether the greater influence is British or American. American influence is dominant in north and central America (probably including West Indies) and in Japan, Philippines, Vietnam (at one time), and Israel (whence also Palestinian Territories). On the other hand, Commonwealth counties in Africa, Asia, etc will tend to follow British practice. This can be extended to non-English speaking counties in Europe, because French, Swedish, and no doubt other languages have cognate words with an S-spelling; also because those which are members of EU will have contact with British English via EU; that will not change with Brexit, since Ireland is not leaving. Peterkingiron (talk) 14:44, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It is naive to assume a preference spelling in non-English speaking countries. When I learned English at school, I learnt the differences between British and American English, with the obvious recommendation to use British English in communication with British people and to use American English in communication with American people. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:40, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Local usage criteria cannot apply in places where English is not a local language. Rathfelder (talk) 22:49, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
According to the article Nigerian English:"Nigerian Standard English is a dialect of English spoken in Nigeria. It is based on British English; but in recent years, it has been influenced by American English from the United States of America." The article says nothing about spelling. Rathfelder (talk) 23:01, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Automotive components companies of South Korea[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: merge. MER-C 09:39, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Propose merging Category:Automotive components companies of South Korea to Category:Auto parts suppliers of South Korea‎

Nominator's rationale: Two names for the same thing. There is a developed Category:Auto parts suppliers by country Rathfelder (talk) 18:21, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support, the two categories have the same scope. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:41, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:World Heritage Tentative List by Bosnia and Herzegovina[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 August 2#Category:World Heritage Tentative List by Bosnia and Herzegovina

Category:World Heritage Tentative List by Colombia[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 August 2#Category:World Heritage Tentative List by Colombia

Category:Roman Catholic philosophers[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: rename. MER-C 16:22, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic philosophers to Category:Catholic philosophers.

Nominator's rationale: Reasons for the move are stated here. Roman Catholicism is just a branch of the Catholic Church. There are also Eastern Catholic Churches, which are Catholic just like any other Church and are in communion with the Pope in Rome. For the sake of uniformity, this category should be renamed to ":Catholic philosophers". Wikipedia's article about the Church in question is called "Catholic Church" and not "Roman Catholic Church" (which is just a branch of the previously mentioned Church). --Governor Sheng (talk) 14:39, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Why would we rename a category on philosophers to a category on converts? Dimadick (talk) 11:35, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Lapsus calami. I fixed it. --Governor Sheng (talk) 18:02, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:58, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:36, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Motorcycle accessory manufacturers[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: rename. MER-C 09:40, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Propose merging Category:Motorcycle accessory manufacturers to Category:Motorcycle parts manufacturers

Nominator's rationale: Slightly wider scope. Not clear that parts like suspension forks are properly described as accessories. Rathfelder (talk) 13:46, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Query - does the nom mean 'rename'? Oculi (talk) 15:49, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry. that is indeed what I intended. Rathfelder (talk) 18:22, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I have added Category:Auto parts suppliers as a parent. – Fayenatic London 07:22, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.